All Hank, all the time.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
ummmm, I know your reading comprehension is much better than mine, but didn't this start by talking about some guys who did "speak out?"

You may have noticed that Sidd and I exchanged some posts between then and now. If you didn't read them because you didn't want your cubicle-mate to hear you mumbling, I understand.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
2. Once Wasps are having to worry during the routine aspects of life (say 5-10 years) your thinking becomes even more out of the loop and bizarre.

In case I wasn't clear before, fuck you. When you know me, you can preach to me about how much better you understand terrorism.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I can't use IM at work for at least today, so maybe. I don't think either of you are white supremacists or even racist -- I think you are both somewhat to quite conservative, and that being surrounded by hyper-liberals all the time has skewed your views of the country/world as a whole.

I hope everything is okay; are you eating..................

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
In case I wasn't clear before, fuck you. When you know me, you can preach to me about how much better you understand terrorism.

So you have some scary experience- okay, but you miss that point that as to whether you are out of loop or not doesn't depend on what you may have experienced.

We are talking about Israel- as an example- not from the standpoint of what someone who lost their kitchen to a rocket last week feels- we're looking at it from how we visualize shit from our pampered offices.

Whether or not you have some unique experience doesn't change the fact that once the average nutjob liberal w/o your valuable experienceis taking off his shoes to go to a middle school volley ball game, you'll have even less of the country thinking your way-

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Spanky
I think the bigger issue here is how much of Britians actions in the Middle East are prompting these terrorist acts.

If Britain completely disengaged from the Middle East. No more support for Israel, no troops in Iraq, and didn't mess around at all in who runs which government, would the terrorist attacks against Britian stop:

My guess here, and this is just a guess:

Ty = yes

Club, Hank and Sgt Club =no

Spanky = confused

Sidd = ?

I'm still on hiatus, but I find this discussion fascinating.

My understanding of last week's plot isn't great, but the media reports that I've read have led me to understand that a good number (how many, I'm not entirely sure) terrorists/conspiritors/persons of interest that were arrested/detained/whatever last week were British citizens, many if not most British born. With the exception of Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh, neither of whom were born into Islam, the US does not appear (yet) to have a problem with home-grown Islamic terrorists. I'd rather keep it that way.

This leads me to believe that there's something in the UK going on that's very different than what happens here. It's been over a decade since I've lived there, but I do not recall the UK being the most inclusive or tolerant place I've ever lived. I have otherwise liberal, open-minded British friends who very dirisively refer to "Pakis" in not very nice terms on a very regular basis. Assimilation is not encouraged, and I think that leads to an easily disaffected population if the conditions are right. (see also, France, last year).

And yet some people want to model our immigration policy off of Europe... I digress.

Anyhow, I applaud the British intelligence apparatus for dismanteling the plot before lives were lost (and 12 hours after I finished flying last week), but I think that the analysis in answering Spanky's question should also look at the conditions inside the UK as well as the British activity abroad.

(Since I'm only here for awhile, I'll say a few semi-related things about the Middle East.

(On Iraq, I think we fucked up majorly by going in there in the first place, that we have diverted important resources that could have been devoted to more productive avenues against the War on Terror or whatever they're calling it this month. But, now that we're there, I'm not really convinced that we (or the brits) can pull out gracefully without causing an even bigger mess.

(On Israel v. Hezbulloh, Go Israel, but it'd be a hell of a lot easier to root for someone in this conflict if attacking Hezbulloh didn't require killing a shitload of civilians.

(On the middle east in general, I find that I don't have time to make bombs and incite dissidence and do all sorts of other shit to hurt the people that I hate, because I have other shit to do. I'd love to sit in a cafe all day and gripe about the man to my fellow shiftless lazeabouts and groan about how miserable I am and then do something about it to hurt the person whose fault I think it is, but I'm not that miserable, and I have to go to work. Seems to me that there are a shitload of people in the Middle East that need to find a job and a mortgage and deal with the headaches of everyday productive lives that are worth preserving. How that happens, I have no idea.

(Also, shit like this needs to be followed up upon regularly and we should loudly demand explanations from our "friends" as to why crap like this is still going on.)

Spanky, put me in the "confused" camp.

Invisibility cloak back on.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
No. I was saying that our only choice is to effect real change to the way these people think, which involves nation building, which can only be done with us in the region, and that that was one reason why I was in favor of the Iraq invasion.

Do you think it's working?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Obviously, moderates in other countries are not silenced by Egypt's (e.g.) government. Forgive me for making a point about Muslims generally.

Forgive me for responding to a gross generalization.

I don't think I said any such thing. I said that I'd like to live in a world where they speak out more, but attacking them for not doing so is not productive.

Why not? What is wrong with pointing out that someone is part of the problem when they claim not to be?

And you were certainly suggesting that moderate muslims lack the power to speak out. If you believe that -- then why? Why would moderates in the US be unable to condemn, unequivocally, acts of terror? Why would they not be able to say, for example, that the Koran forbids the killing of innocents and those who launch rockets into villages will burn in hell? If it's a lack of power -- hoo-boy, that just means that such views are so unpopular among muslims, even in the US, that even leaders are afraid to speak them.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
.......stuff............

Hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm, I guess in the way that I am kinder, gentler and more well behavourised these days, I will respond that while as a patriot of the right, I, obviously, love America and don't hate anything, because hate is a hateful state to be in, I sometimes hate the crap you (sometimes) post, especially siting spurious blogs as evidence of anything except the cautionary shortcomings and dangers of the interwebberian information systems of our current age.

But I love you like the batshit-insane winger brother I never had, or even better like a too soft, too heavy, buttered up, too alcoholic and seriously over-oaked California Chardonnay that all of the critics lambaste, but which I still have a soft spot for.....ABC be damned, I give you 97 points!!

ps: I hope everything is okay; are you eating..................

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I'm still on hiatus, but I find this discussion fascinating.

My understanding of last week's plot isn't great, but the media reports that I've read have led me to understand that a good number (how many, I'm not entirely sure) terrorists/conspiritors/persons of interest that were arrested/detained/whatever last week were British citizens, many if not most British born. With the exception of Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh, neither of whom were born into Islam, the US does not appear (yet) to have a problem with home-grown Islamic terrorists. I'd rather keep it that way.

This leads me to believe that there's something in the UK going on that's very different than what happens here. It's been over a decade since I've lived there, but I do not recall the UK being the most inclusive or tolerant place I've ever lived. I have otherwise liberal, open-minded British friends who very dirisively refer to "Pakis" in not very nice terms on a very regular basis. Assimilation is not encouraged, and I think that leads to an easily disaffected population if the conditions are right. (see also, France, last year).

And yet some people want to model our immigration policy off of Europe... I digress.

Anyhow, I applaud the British intelligence apparatus for dismanteling the plot before lives were lost (and 12 hours after I finished flying last week), but I think that the analysis in answering Spanky's question should also look at the conditions inside the UK as well as the British activity abroad.

(Since I'm only here for awhile, I'll say a few semi-related things about the Middle East.

(On Iraq, I think we fucked up majorly by going in there in the first place, that we have diverted important resources that could have been devoted to more productive avenues against the War on Terror or whatever they're calling it this month. But, now that we're there, I'm not really convinced that we (or the brits) can pull out gracefully without causing an even bigger mess.

(On Israel v. Hezbulloh, Go Israel, but it'd be a hell of a lot easier to root for someone in this conflict if attacking Hezbulloh didn't require killing a shitload of civilians.

(On the middle east in general, I find that I don't have time to make bombs and incite dissidence and do all sorts of other shit to hurt the people that I hate, because I have other shit to do. I'd love to sit in a cafe all day and gripe about the man to my fellow shiftless lazeabouts and groan about how miserable I am and then do something about it to hurt the person whose fault I think it is, but I'm not that miserable, and I have to go to work. Seems to me that there are a shitload of people in the Middle East that need to find a job and a mortgage and deal with the headaches of everyday productive lives that are worth preserving. How that happens, I have no idea.

(Also, shit like this needs to be followed up upon regularly and we should loudly demand explanations from our "friends" as to why crap like this is still going on.)

Spanky, put me in the "confused" camp.

Invisibility cloak back on.

222222

[Adder]

Originally posted by Spanky
I think the bigger issue here is how much of Britians actions in the Middle East are prompting these terrorist acts.

If Britain completely disengaged from the Middle East. No more support for Israel, no troops in Iraq, and didn't mess around at all in who runs which government, would the terrorist attacks against Britian stop:

My guess here, and this is just a guess:

Ty = yes

Club, Hank and Sgt Club =no

Spanky = confused

Sidd = ?

Britain's case is different than ours. They may have avoided them if they didn't back the U.S. in Iraq and elsewhere. But you are probably right that they probably can't put the cat back in the bag.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Why not? What is wrong with pointing out that someone is part of the problem when they claim not to be?

As an intellectual exercise, it's boring, in the same way that pointing out hypocrisy on the other side is boring. As an exercise in changing the world, I don't think it changes anyone's behavior. And often it's an attempt to score cheap political points, a sort of pose rather than an attempt to accomplish anything. E.g., Penske baiting me when he asked why I wouldn't condemn Yassir Arafat's terrorism.

And you were certainly suggesting that moderate muslims lack the power to speak out. If you believe that -- then why? Why would moderates in the US be unable to condemn, unequivocally, acts of terror? Why would they not be able to say, for example, that the Koran forbids the killing of innocents and those who launch rockets into villages will burn in hell? If it's a lack of power -- hoo-boy, that just means that such views are so unpopular among muslims, even in the US, that even leaders are afraid to speak them.

I didn't mean to suggest that moderates lack the power to speak out. I can imagine a whole range of reasons for their silence. E.g., a desire to keep a low profile when terrorism is the hot topic.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sgtclub
You're thinking about someone else.

It's possiible I might be thinking of Burger.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I'm still on hiatus, but I find this discussion fascinating.

My understanding of last week's plot isn't great, but the media reports that I've read have led me to understand that a good number (how many, I'm not entirely sure) terrorists/conspiritors/persons of interest that were arrested/detained/whatever last week were British citizens, many if not most British born. With the exception of Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh, neither of whom were born into Islam, the US does not appear (yet) to have a problem with home-grown Islamic terrorists. I'd rather keep it that way.

This leads me to believe that there's something in the UK going on that's very different than what happens here. It's been over a decade since I've lived there, but I do not recall the UK being the most inclusive or tolerant place I've ever lived. I have otherwise liberal, open-minded British friends who very dirisively refer to "Pakis" in not very nice terms on a very regular basis. Assimilation is not encouraged, and I think that leads to an easily disaffected population if the conditions are right. (see also, France, last year).

And yet some people want to model our immigration policy off of Europe... I digress.

Anyhow, I applaud the British intelligence apparatus for dismanteling the plot before lives were lost (and 12 hours after I finished flying last week), but I think that the analysis in answering Spanky's question should also look at the conditions inside the UK as well as the British activity abroad.

(Since I'm only here for awhile, I'll say a few semi-related things about the Middle East.

(On Iraq, I think we fucked up majorly by going in there in the first place, that we have diverted important resources that could have been devoted to more productive avenues against the War on Terror or whatever they're calling it this month. But, now that we're there, I'm not really convinced that we (or the brits) can pull out gracefully without causing an even bigger mess.

(On Israel v. Hezbulloh, Go Israel, but it'd be a hell of a lot easier to root for someone in this conflict if attacking Hezbulloh didn't require killing a shitload of civilians.

(On the middle east in general, I find that I don't have time to make bombs and incite dissidence and do all sorts of other shit to hurt the people that I hate, because I have other shit to do. I'd love to sit in a cafe all day and gripe about the man to my fellow shiftless lazeabouts and groan about how miserable I am and then do something about it to hurt the person whose fault I think it is, but I'm not that miserable, and I have to go to work. Seems to me that there are a shitload of people in the Middle East that need to find a job and a mortgage and deal with the headaches of everyday productive lives that are worth preserving. How that happens, I have no idea.

(Also, shit like this needs to be followed up upon regularly and we should loudly demand explanations from our "friends" as to why crap like this is still going on.)

Spanky, put me in the "confused" camp.

Invisibility cloak back on.

I agree with this.

(Come back, RT!)

[Adder]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I'm still on hiatus, but I find this discussion fascinating.

My understanding of last week's plot isn't great, but the media reports that I've read have led me to understand that a good number (how many, I'm not entirely sure) terrorists/conspiritors/persons of interest that were arrested/detained/whatever last week were British citizens, many if not most British born. With the exception of Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh, neither of whom were born into Islam, the US does not appear (yet) to have a problem with home-grown Islamic terrorists. I'd rather keep it that way.

This leads me to believe that there's something in the UK going on that's very different than what happens here. It's been over a decade since I've lived there, but I do not recall the UK being the most inclusive or tolerant place I've ever lived. I have otherwise liberal, open-minded British friends who very dirisively refer to "Pakis" in not very nice terms on a very regular basis. Assimilation is not encouraged, and I think that leads to an easily disaffected population if the conditions are right. (see also, France, last year).

And yet some people want to model our immigration policy off of Europe... I digress.

Anyhow, I applaud the British intelligence apparatus for dismanteling the plot before lives were lost (and 12 hours after I finished flying last week), but I think that the analysis in answering Spanky's question should also look at the conditions inside the UK as well as the British activity abroad.

(Since I'm only here for awhile, I'll say a few semi-related things about the Middle East.

(On Iraq, I think we fucked up majorly by going in there in the first place, that we have diverted important resources that could have been devoted to more productive avenues against the War on Terror or whatever they're calling it this month. But, now that we're there, I'm not really convinced that we (or the brits) can pull out gracefully without causing an even bigger mess.

(On Israel v. Hezbulloh, Go Israel, but it'd be a hell of a lot easier to root for someone in this conflict if attacking Hezbulloh didn't require killing a shitload of civilians.

(On the middle east in general, I find that I don't have time to make bombs and incite dissidence and do all sorts of other shit to hurt the people that I hate, because I have other shit to do. I'd love to sit in a cafe all day and gripe about the man to my fellow shiftless lazeabouts and groan about how miserable I am and then do something about it to hurt the person whose fault I think it is, but I'm not that miserable, and I have to go to work. Seems to me that there are a shitload of people in the Middle East that need to find a job and a mortgage and deal with the headaches of everyday productive lives that are worth preserving. How that happens, I have no idea.

(Also, shit like this needs to be followed up upon regularly and we should loudly demand explanations from our "friends" as to why crap like this is still going on.)

Spanky, put me in the "confused" camp.

Invisibility cloak back on.

2

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
For awhile.

2