Posting Towards Gomorrah

[SlaveNoMore]

taxwonk
So then it is the latter -- exploitation of the tragedy for shock value that you were engaged in. Okay. Having established that, can I then assume that the purpose of this exploitation is to keep people here sufficiently outraged that they are willing to scapegoat suspected terrorists and to deprice tehm of human dignity?

So then, would the exposition of photos of Holocaust victims be just "exploitation" or "shock value" - or is it a tragic reminder of the horrors and suffering of a past age?

More importantly - 9/11/01: Never fucking forget!

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I thought his point was clear.

If "waterboarding" a terrorist for information is called "torture" - then what would you call being forced to jump from a 120 story building because of a 400 degree fire.

No Slave, don't you understand, those people in the Towers and America as a whole deserved it. Our brutal imperialism all over the world and our support of Israel oppressed and outraged these Islamics and they were justly motivated to provide us with notice of their outrage and wronged status. We brought this on ourselves. We should be torturing America, not the Islamo-facistst. We are to blame.

Also, it wasn't really the terrorists who did it, it was an Israeli-Republican Party plot to make the Islamics look bad. Didn't you hear, no Jews went to work in the WTC that day. They were all alerted by the Mossad.

[SlaveNoMore]

taxwonk
.... I then assume that the purpose of this exploitation is to keep people here sufficiently outraged that they are willing to scapegoat suspected terrorists and to deprice tehm of human dignity?

You've stooped to using quotes from CAIR?

Good lord.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Just so my point gets made, because I made it already, but not in response to the question: The value of seeing people jumping out of the WTC far outweighs any offense it may carry. This is our reality. If we tortue some jihadi and prevent even one plot that had a 10% chance of suceeding we better fucking do that- everyone needs to be reminded of that, every day.

Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Now, how do we solve the problem of my son and thousands, if not millions, or kids not being able to sleep at night? And how do we run the risk of not becoming so inured to the sight of someone tumbling out of the sky to certain death that it ceases to have any impact or meaning for us?

Also, do we use the same loose standards for choosing torture victims as were recently proposed for searching people getting on to planes?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
So then, would the exposition of photos of Holocaust victims be just "exploitation" or "shock value" - or is it a tragic reminder of the horrors and suffering of a past age?

the President of Iran said the Holocaust never happened. I thought he was a reasonable guy with whom we should deal ....certainly he wouldn't lie, would he?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You've stooped to using quotes from CAIR?

Good lord.

It's sad. I honestly think we have lost. We should just turn over the keys now. Even though they are a minourity, the weakness and capitulatoriousness of the left dooms all of us. Why don't they just move to France, wouldn't they be happier....????

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Now, how do we solve the problem of my son and thousands, if not millions, or kids not being able to sleep at night? And how do we run the risk of not becoming so inured to the sight of someone tumbling out of the sky to certain death that it ceases to have any impact or meaning for us?

Also, do we use the same loose standards for choosing torture victims as were recently proposed for searching people getting on to planes?

did you have nightmares from school "duck and cover" drills- our childhood reality?

Are you saying that we are tortuing people just because they are Islamic? Ty pointed to a guy who would seem to know a whole lot of names. Al Queda flew him all around theworld to meet and greet people. Ty says because he wasn't a decision maker we shouldn't be bothering with him- i asked wouldn't he know the names of a lot of people, you know from all the meet and greets?

but if you know we are choosing tortue candidates purely upon profiling then I stand with you Taxwonk in your brave stand of being against it.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I thought his point was clear.

If "waterboarding" a terrorist for information is called "torture" - then what would you call being forced to jump from a 120 story building because of a 400 degree fire.

An involuntary and tragic response to a clearly unlawful and savage act by terrorists. But that doesn't make torture any less torture.

Don't try and pretty it up. If you're going to advocate abandoning the principles upon which this country was founded, the principles that brought both your ancestors and mine here, to become part of a nation where such acts as torture were clearly recognized as universally wrong, then have the balls to stand up and admit it.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Dissent. And if you are going to quote Ed Meese, you should properly attribute it.

But that's the position you've been taking with the detainees at Abu Graihb and Gitmo. It's also the same position, at least implied, in advocating torture for "suspected jihadis" as Hank described them.

And Ed Meese said "if they weren't guilty, they wouldn't be defendants."

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
An involuntary and tragic response to a clearly unlawful and savage act by terrorists. But that doesn't make torture any less torture.

Don't try and pretty it up. If you're going to advocate abandoning the principles upon which this country was founded, the principles that brought both your ancestors and mine here, to become part of a nation where such acts as torture were clearly recognized as universally wrong, then have the balls to stand up and admit it.

what principles? when haven't we tortued enemies who have critical information? unless you mean the Clinton and Carter years when our intelligence services were hamstrung and dismantled to avoid "dirty tricks."

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
So then, would the exposition of photos of Holocaust victims be just "exploitation" or "shock value" - or is it a tragic reminder of the horrors and suffering of a past age?

More importantly - 9/11/01: Never fucking forget!

An exposition to remember and honor is a far different thing than the craven use of a photo to induce a person to dehumanize another. You'll notice that the UJF doesn't put pictures of concentration camp victims, or bodies tacked in mass graves or incinerators, on its mailings soliciting grassroots support for mailing campaigns to Congress.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You've stooped to using quotes from CAIR?

Good lord.

I don't even know what CAIR is.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
the President of Iran said the Holocaust never happened. I thought he was a reasonable guy with whom we should deal ....certainly he wouldn't lie, would he?

This is relevant how? If you want me to engage with you, then start making sense.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
did you have nightmares from school "duck and cover" drills- our childhood reality?

Are you saying that we are tortuing people just because they are Islamic? Ty pointed to a guy who would seem to know a whole lot of names. Al Queda flew him all around theworld to meet and greet people. Ty says because he wasn't a decision maker we shouldn't be bothering with him- i asked wouldn't he know the names of a lot of people, you know from all the meet and greets?

but if you know we are choosing tortue candidates purely upon profiling then I stand with you Taxwonk in your brave stand of being against it.

How old are you? Duck and cover drills wre something my parents had. Incidentally, my uncle used to have nightmares after every drill.

From the description of the guy Ty was talking about, it sounded like he had nothing that we wouldn't already have had from other, more reliable sources.

Besides, Hank, you went well beyond this one guy. You said that if there was a mere 10% chance a "suspected jihadi" might have information that would prevent another terrorist attack, then we should torture em. Ty's guy was someone the CIA had evaluated and determined to be a useless source and crazy to boot, but at least he was a confirmed Al Qaeda member.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
How old are you? Duck and cover drills wre something my parents had. Incidentally, my uncle used to have nightmares after every drill.

not duck and cover like in the old films but we sat in hallways and ducked our heads. Maybe for tornados, but I thought for the bomb.