Posting Towards Gomorrah

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by bilmore
(From the other board, on Burger's well-aimed orders

Hyperbole. "Anywhere near"? The funding the bill "was sold on"? This wasn't a funding bill - it imposed requirements - requirements that the education systems should have been meeting anyway - and then it provided some funds to ameliorate the pain. In the grand scheme of things, the feds don't provide local education funding, even when they announce that there are standards that all schools must live up to, and some schools aren't, so here's what we're gonna do. The "missing" funds under NCLB constitute a very, very small portion of total ed funding.

I'm still amazed that liberals can be so abusive towards this bill - it's the classic "enforce national standards for the benefit of the poor" type of law, but the vitriol suggests, to me, that the NEA carries way more weight (in instances where they are complately conflicted) than is healthy. This was a good bill, but you'd think Bush and Kennedy imposed it to steal books from kids.

It sounds like you think the bill is an unmitigated success - so why aren't the Rs running on it?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
It sounds like you think the bill is an unmitigated success - so why aren't the Rs running on it?

Because, as usual, I think Bush, et al, have done a shitty job of justifying their (correct and laudable) actions, and the Dems have won the war for the public misperception of this law. It's too late to rehabilitate. Form over substance wins again.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by bilmore
Because, as usual, I think Bush, et al, have done a shitty job of justifying their (correct and laudable) actions, and the Dems have won the war for the public misperception of this law. It's too late to rehabilitate. Form over substance wins again.

On the substantive issue of how to educate kids, I think Bush has generally prevailed and the rote and test methods are now prevalent. I may disagree, but I don't think the public does. The public as a whole expects this approach to work.

I think there are two problems. Bush made commitments he didn't keep. Section 2 of the Bill lays out the steadily increasing funding amounts - and you may sneeze at a $25 billion commitment for last year, but it's the commitment that was very publicly made.

The second problem is marginal results.
See Here. . If you compare these to the impact of the federal program most derided by many Rs, Head Start, NCLB doesn't look so hot. Is the modest impact related to the program itself or the lack of funding? I don't think that's a question the Rs want to deal with in a campaign season.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Because, as usual, I think Bush, et al, have done a shitty job of justifying their (correct and laudable) actions, and the Dems have won the war for the public misperception of this law. It's too late to rehabilitate. Form over substance wins again.

It's almost like the GOP doesn't know how to run on their own record of accomplishments.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's almost like the GOP doesn't know how to run on their own record of accomplishments.

I can only speak for michigan, but the dirtiest, and most patentably unfair stuff, has been by worried Dem incumbents. But I am sure the WPost took a fair survey of the country and felt its "far worse on the GOP side" statement is fair.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
On the substantive issue of how to educate kids, I think Bush has generally prevailed and the rote and test methods are now prevalent. I may disagree, but I don't think the public does. The public as a whole expects this approach to work.

I think there are two problems. Bush made commitments he didn't keep. Section 2 of the Bill lays out the steadily increasing funding amounts - and you may sneeze at a $25 billion commitment for last year, but it's the commitment that was very publicly made.

The second problem is marginal results.
See Here. . If you compare these to the impact of the federal program most derided by many Rs, Head Start, NCLB doesn't look so hot. Is the modest impact related to the program itself or the lack of funding? I don't think that's a question the Rs want to deal with in a campaign season.

I have to do a quick answer here, but I'll just say that I think Head Start is one of the most worthy programs for public funding ever set up, and so I can't sit here and argue with the presumption that, because something isn't as good as Head Start, it's a failure.

And, I still think that the results of NCLB are not going to be completely measured until the classes in elementary school when it began start earning wages.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I can only speak for michigan, but the dirtiest, and most patentably unfair stuff, has been by worried Dem incumbents. But I am sure the WPost took a fair survey of the country and felt its "far worse on the GOP side" statement is fair.

Michigan is surely typical this year in having large numbers of worried Democratic incumbents.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
On the substantive issue of how to educate kids, I think Bush has generally prevailed and the rote and test methods are now prevalent. I may disagree, but I don't think the public does. The public as a whole expects this approach to work.

I think there are two problems. Bush made commitments he didn't keep. Section 2 of the Bill lays out the steadily increasing funding amounts - and you may sneeze at a $25 billion commitment for last year, but it's the commitment that was very publicly made.

The second problem is marginal results.
See Here. . If you compare these to the impact of the federal program most derided by many Rs, Head Start, NCLB doesn't look so hot. Is the modest impact related to the program itself or the lack of funding? I don't think that's a question the Rs want to deal with in a campaign season.

Oops. I have a few more minutes than I thought. I understand that the rote and test method does not deliver excellence from the top third of students. However, it does ensure that the bottom third keep up, and I think that's the goal of NCLB. Localities are free to fund the excellence at the top, too.

But I think that, in terms of overall societal health, as a fed mandate, we're better off making sure we're not completely failing that bottom third. And, I think we were, prior to NCLB.

I, like you, think that rote and test is a waste for the kids who, like us, went to law school and argue about which fun lux car to buy, but it's the only hope for the kids with the cracked parents and the lousy (but PC) teacher in inner Detroit or Chicago or Nashville or . . .)

[SlaveNoMore]

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
you tube

Have I become the new Hank? Am I on ignore?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's almost like the GOP doesn't know how to run on their own record of accomplishments.

I'll own this if you'll own ACORN.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Michigan is surely typical this year in having large numbers of worried Democratic incumbents.

Who are the worried Democratic incumbants? Bob Menendez is the only nationally prominent one I can think of, and he was appointed to the seat. (And, with a tip of my homburg to Hank, he and Kean are both reportedly running some pretty negative -- but accurate -- ads.) I think Bill Nelson in Florida was supposed to be vulnerable, but that didn't quite work out as planned.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by bilmore
I have to do a quick answer here, but I'll just say that I think Head Start is one of the most worthy programs for public funding ever set up, and so I can't sit here and argue with the presumption that, because something isn't as good as Head Start, it's a failure.

And, I still think that the results of NCLB are not going to be completely measured until the classes in elementary school when it began start earning wages.

We'll certainly keep learning about the impact through then, but if the philosophy works, we should be seeing real results in the 5-10 year period after implementation.

While I'd be happy to concede that the program is not yet fully implemented, responsibility for that lies at Bush's and Hasert's doorstep.

The telling problem is that your guys in DC just haven't stuck by and prioritized this.

[Ignore]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Have I become the new Hank? Am I on ignore?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Have I become the new Hank? Am I on ignore?

Oops.

A few years ago, I looked at my wife and remarked that I couldn't shake the feeling that I'd forgotten something - a wedding, or a birthday, or something.

(You can see where this is going.)

Anyway, I ended up buying, like the BIGGEST (and latest) birthday present ever that year.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
I'll own this if you'll own ACORN.

What is it?