Newber-Friendly

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Even most people here adhere to the "women get off the elevator first" rule -- is it really that archaic? Where isn't it observed (in office buildings populated in large part by fairly highly paid professionals)? New York? DC? Chicago? SF?

I witnessed the ridiculousness of this the other day. Crowded elevator -- one foolish, foolish man near the front of the elevator attempting to step aside so that the women all around him could get off. He ended up stepping on one's foot and bumping into another one. Finally someone just said "get out of the way." While he was only try to do his best, and the "get out of the way" person was rude, I chuckled.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by patentparanyc
In NY, they always let the women get off first.

Not in the buildings housing firms in whose conference rooms I've done due diligence.

[NotFromHere]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
Now, I'd be happy in giving up the old "female" preference rules if only we could get people to actually stick to the modern "old, disabled & preggers" precedence categories. (I only mentioned a reversion to "ladies first" by way of penalty & punishment for the lapsed.) The problem isn't that women don't get to sit down, it is that the outdated system of gender precedence has been de facto replaced by ... nothing.

TM: I concur that determining who is more tired than you is entirely subjective and therefore can't be mandatory. Still, it's good to try, and hope that others will do the same when it's you coming off a 40 hour day. Generational distinctions can be tricky as well (witness 70-year old Russians in hotpants and face-spackling coming from brighton beach - well, that's not tricky but you get the point) and don't inherently imply weakness, but still. (Giving seats to families who can't otherwise corral and control their children is just basic self-preservation.)

What about women who are obviously fat and perhaps potentially pregnant? One of the associates here said she rode her post-pregancy weight for as long as she could to get a seat on Muni. Do you offend the fat but not pregnant woman or give up a seat to a woman who's just fat but mostly belly fat?

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Half the people in this building adhere to the archaic "women get off the elevator first" rule, the other doesn't.

Just for the record, even before the "ladies first" rules were semi-officially retired (with a grandfathering clause until the death of any Boomers who might have been brough up on it) in about 1970, it did not apply to getting off elevators (or, it applied in that elevators were an exception, along with "ladies go down steps last" and other exciting variants). To think ladies get off elevators first is a mistake of a type that, in linguistics, is known as a "hyper-correction," not much different from using "I" as the object of a sentence because you vaguely remember to avoid "me" but don't really understand the rule. The rule for elevators didn't change when ladies first went the way of the dodo - those what are close to the door get off first. This is where etiquette meets basic common sense - and I note that if that wasn't the rule, everyone following the "rule" would still be stuck on some crowded elevator somewhere safely out of the way of the rest of us.

I apologize. But I also point out that BRC started it.

Yeah, sorry.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb

ETA I mainly care that there is an understood rule. Because it's just massive confusion in crowded elevators making many stops when there isn't an understood rule.

Agreed on that. Especially among people who have such little spatial awareness as to who should exit first. Usually the assclown who's trying to be gallant blocks half the door himself, and another 1/4 gesticulating for a woman to move past him. Just get off and go hold the entry door for her instead.

ETA: Apparently such people can be found in at least the building GWNC works and the one in which I work.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
ot much different from using "I" as the object of a sentence because you vaguely remember to avoid "me" but don't really understand the rule.

Isn't it correct to use "myself" in those circumstances?

[nononono]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
Just for the record, even before the "ladies first" rules were semi-officially retired (with a grandfathering clause until the death of any Boomers who might have been brough up on it) in about 1970, it did not apply to getting off elevators (or, it applied in that elevators were an exception, along with "ladies go down steps last" and other exciting variants). To think ladies get off elevators first is a mistake of a type that, in linguistics, is known as a "hyper-correction," not much different from using "I" as the object of a sentence because you vaguely remember to avoid "me" but don't really understand the rule. The rule for elevators didn't change when ladies first went the way of the dodo - those what are close to the door get off first. This is where etiquette meets basic common sense - and I note that if that wasn't the rule, everyone following the "rule" would still be stuck on some crowded elevator somewhere safely out of the way of the rest of us.
Yeah, sorry.

Is it not merely a variant on holding the door for women and letting them pass first? It seems consistent, not an overcorrection.

But yes, in gwnc's example, he should have stepped out and to the side, put his hand on the door to keep it from closing, let the women pass and then left the men to fight like dogs over who pushes out first.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Agreed on that. Especially among people who have such little spatial awareness as to who should exit first. Usually the assclown who's trying to be gallant blocks half the door himself, and another 1/4 gesticulating for a woman to move past him. Just get off and go hold the entry door for her instead.

ETA: Apparently such people can be found in at least the building GWNC works and the one in which I work.

I'm not usually in very crowded elevators except maybe after a fire drill. I now just basically run for my life when we get to my floor.

ETA I think it's the "out and to the side" part that people don't get, both at the doors of subways and at elevator doors.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I'm not usually in very crowded elevators except maybe after a fire drill. I now just basically run for my life when we get to my floor.

Post-fire-drill elevator use has to be absolutely the worse. Everybody piles on elevators as they come. People need to be sensible. Get everyone going to floor 2 on the first elevator, floor 3 on the next, and so on. Having every elevator stop at every floor could not be less efficient.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by NotFromHere
What about women who are obviously fat and perhaps potentially pregnant? One of the associates here said she rode her post-pregancy weight for as long as she could to get a seat on Muni. Do you offend the fat but not pregnant woman or give up a seat to a woman who's just fat but mostly belly fat?

Heh. In considering my general peevishness about subway manners the other day, I was actually wondering if it was impolite for fat people to sit down on crowded trains at all if they took up more than one seat.

I generally just make my best guess, though I note that "fat clothes" are generally noticably distinct from "maternity clothes." I suspect few women get to sit down before the third trimester, which is a pity since the first seems to be when a lot of them need it most.

It is illegitimate to take offense at someone offering you a courtesy. This is a very, very useful thing to remember in just about all human interactions. See: mother-in-law who gives a mink to her PETA-member d-i-l, ex-wife who goes out of her way to be gracious to new-wife to the point of implying she is grateful to new wife for making her ex.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Post-fire-drill elevator use has to be absolutely the worse. Everybody piles on elevators as they come. People need to be sensible. Get everyone going to floor 2 on the first elevator, floor 3 on the next, and so on. Having every elevator stop at every floor could not be less efficient.

I am 100% with you on this.

We should rule the world.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb

We should rule the world.

I am with you 50% on this.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I am with you 50% on this.

You are too, too modest. Though I am definitely the greatest person the universe has ever known, so I can see why you'd defer.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by nononono
bullshit. On my worst day, pregnant and with packages, I'll always give up my seat for someone who looks worse off. It's just fucking nice.

Full of fury, signifying nothing, considering I've already said I give up my seat to the elderly, disabled and pregnant. But you sound pretty tough, if that makes you feel better.

Originally posted by nononono
But anyway, once you take out the elderly, disabled and pregnant, who are you talking about who is left? Oh, "older" and "female." Well, again, that's a matter of being polite and part of civil society.

Fuck off. I am not giving up my seat to someone simply because they're older. And I sure as hell am not giving up my seat for women just because they're female. Your definition of "polite" is outdated or just plain wrong. What the fuck about me sacrificing my comfort for women who are perfectly capable of dealing otherwise has to do with civil society?

If I held on to the outdated belief that women shouldn't compete in sports because they are not built for it, should be accompanied in public at all times for their own protection, shouldn't be allowed to vote because they don't understand the issues or any other outdated approach that led to the "polite" rules you're bitching about, maybe I would give up my seat. But women are not helpless and expect my respect, so demanding special treatment in these categories, while demanding equal treatment in all others is fucking bullshit.

Originally posted by nononono
People who ignore it make the world that much more irritating for everyone.

Suck a dick. People who expect it make it more irritating for those of us operating on common sense rules.

Originally posted by nononono
Have you never seen the smiles that go around when someone gives up a seat (okay, I mostly rode the 5th Ave. bus to work, so maybe that's the issue) for somone else who just looks beat or struggling, or just even slightly more harried, female or "of a certain age"? Everyone feels better.

Bullshit. One, I didn't say you shouldn't give up your seat to someone who looks like they need a rest. I said giving up a seat to a woman because she's a woman is bullshit. So is giving up a seat to someone simply because they're older.

Two, I often give up my seat and it makes me and the person I'm giving the seat to feel good. In fact, my young daughter is instructed to give up her seat for anyone who is prego, elderly or worse as well and it makes her feel good too. That's about it. No one else gives a fuck.

So stop acting like these are rules that everyone should follow. They're mostly stupid and serve no point other than to give people like you something to scowl about and mutter under their breath about their fucked up views on "politeness."

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by nononono
I like it (though I generally refuse unless I am in dire need - but that's not the point). I like the door being held for women, having chairs held out, men rising to greet a woman, and women going first off the elevator as well. And fwiw, I let older women go before me, too.

Doors should be opened for anyone close enough to you that it would be the polite thing to do. Doors should be held for anyone who is sufficiently close behind you once you've gone through. Everything else in your post is stupid and the fact that you expect it makes you a selfish, self-centered, pain in the ass.

TM