Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Jesus. This is such bullshit. They are not commiting violence in the name of Algeria or black cars.

If you don't think that reducing the safe-harbor of soft support (or the absence of outright condemnation) from others in the religion will make a difference, then I don't know what to say. If you are able to persuade, from the inside, the parts of the muslim community who feel like people who denounce the prophet should be punished severely but who are unwilling to actually pull the trigger, maybe you decrease the number of muslims in the community who look the other way when it occurs. Maybe you reduce the monetary support.

Let me ask you a question. If a bunch of mormons started killing muslims, would you not want the mormon church and mormons generally to speak out against it--to try to convince other mormons that it was wrong, even though you knew the vast number of mormons didn't go out killing people?

TM

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...u-might-think/

That's a fuck ton of people who are being asked to "speak out" about something that they, their religious leader, their friends, their families had nothing to do with, and a lot of cases may not even know about. About a fourth of the world's population should be speaking out??? This makes no sense at all.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...u-might-think/

That's a fuck ton of people who are being asked to "speak out" about something that they, their religious leader, their friends, their families had nothing to do with, and a lot of cases may not even know about. About a fourth of the world's population should be speaking out??? This makes no sense at all.

Then what should happen? We move slowly towards a world wide war? This strikes me as a problem of manipulation of disaffected young men. the extremists know that and go after them. Why can't normal non-crazy muslims do the same to pull them back?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...u-might-think/

That's a fuck ton of people who are being asked to "speak out" about something that they, their religious leader, their friends, their families had nothing to do with, and a lot of cases may not even know about. About a fourth of the world's population should be speaking out??? This makes no sense at all.

This is a bullshit response.

People are expecting muslims in and around areas where extremists live and are active to (not just) speak out, but try to effectuate some change. If there are a million muslims in a given community and a thousand extremists looking to do or who are supporting harm in the name of Islam, I think it would be great if that community tried to get a handle on it. Mind you, that doesn't mean it's not dangerous. And that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be doing our part by not bombing the fuck out of innocent people.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

With that adjustment, I am inclined to agree that, yes, moderate Islam should be more vigilant in shaming its fundamentalists.

But then, consider moderate Christians all over this country. They're appalled and embarrassed by fundamentalists, but what are they supposed to do about it? If a man wants to believe the Earth is 6000 years old, or the Bible the inerrant word of God, there's no reasoning with him. All one can do is distance himself. So yes -- moderate Muslims could mock and marginalize the crazies a bit more, but it's hard to criticize them much for not doing so. Ultimately, the best rejection of Islamic fundamentalism will be the overwhelming majority of Muslims remaining moderate and assimilated.

I think your initial statement is wrong for all of the reasons you provide in your second paragraph. There's no reason at all to think that Islamists give a shit what moderate Muslims think, except that they obviously don't buy it.

People who call on moderate Muslims to denounce the Islamists are saying that -- unlike normal people -- moderate Muslims can be presumed to be sympathetic with the Islamists and need to rebut this presumption. No one says it like that, because when you say it that way, it sounds loopy.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But technically, their emergence does dovetail with a drop in crime. Other factors are of course part of that decrease, but Adder's suggestion that broken windows has been proven not to have been a contributing factor is not true.

There has been a nationwide drop in crime rates over many years. No one knows why -- some people say it's about lead paint -- so you are definitely correct when you say that the "broken windows" approach has not been proven not to work. Since NYC is TCOTU, New Yorkers understandably see this is as a story about the particular strategies adopted by particular mayors and police commissioners -- taking account of the national trends would require acknowledging the world beyond the Five Boroughs.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

This is a bullshit response.

People are expecting muslims in and around areas where extremists live and are active to (not just) speak out, but try to effectuate some change. If there are a million muslims in a given community and a thousand extremists looking to do or who are supporting harm in the name of Islam, I think it would be great if that community tried to get a handle on it. Mind you, that doesn't mean it's not dangerous. And that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be doing our part by not bombing the fuck out of innocent people.

TM

So in Boston, where one of the kids had tons of friends and at least one relative who were shocked to shit at what ended up happening, what could have been done? How could he have been swayed down a different path by some iman in a mosque he doesn't go to? What sort of change could the non-Chechen muslims in the greater Boston area effected to get a handle on him?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

So in Boston, where one of the kids had tons of friends and at least one relative who were shocked to shit at what ended up happening, what could have been done? How could he have been swayed down a different path by some iman in a mosque he doesn't go to? What sort of change could the non-Chechen muslims in the greater Boston area effected to get a handle on him?

they could have been more involved in what two young men in the sweet spot of doing shit, were up to.

edit- you see a 20 year old man who has never been too religious and suddenly he starts breaking for prayers maybe trying to get to know him, and if he is heading towards the crazy steer him back. I also presume a bunch of the converts are from net based recruitment. Can't others start counter-recruiting web efforts?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Jesus. This is such bullshit. They are not commiting violence in the name of Algeria or black cars.

If you don't think that reducing the safe-harbor of soft support (or the absence of outright condemnation) from others in the religion will make a difference, then I don't know what to say. If you are able to persuade, from the inside, the parts of the muslim community who feel like people who denounce the prophet should be punished severely but who are unwilling to actually pull the trigger, maybe you decrease the number of muslims in the community who look the other way when it occurs. Maybe you reduce the monetary support.

Let me ask you a question. If a bunch of mormons started killing muslims, would you not want the mormon church and mormons generally to speak out against it--to try to convince other mormons that it was wrong, even though you knew the vast number of mormons didn't go out killing people?

TM

I don't think there is a muslim community, any more than I think there is a black community, and I think the propensity to find public figures and to turn them into spokesmen for their race or religion is a problem. It makes a little more sense with a religion like Catholicism, where you have a very strong institutional structure, but you certainly wouldn't ask Mormons to denounce a notional act of terrorism by Russian Orthodox adherents, because the two obviously don't have anything to do with each other. Islam is hardly monolithic -- it's a decentralized religious tradition that different people take in different directions. The notion that most French Muslims share important beliefs with Islamists comes from people who don't understand either very well and choose to conflate the two.

Asking French Muslims -- who are 10% of the population -- to denounce the lunatic actions of a few psychopathic Islamists is not a way to dry up support for future Islamists. It's about stigmatizing all Muslims, for those who can't be bothered to tell the difference, and it's about reassuring the non-Muslim majority that the dark-skinned among them aren't all out to get them.

From what I've heard about the brother and their friend, it's not like they had or needed much support. They used Kalashnikovs and stolen cars. They hung out with another dude and shot a crossbow. The friend has a long rap sheet and converted to Islam recently, in prison.

In a way, what's really scary about these attacks is that they don't seem to have been the product of a well-organized terrorist organization or a radicalized mosque. They seem to have been a few disaffected losers who found their way to the death cult that is Islamism and eventually started shooting.

How do you stop that? Not by pressure from moderate Moslems. That's part of who these guys were reacting to.

eta: I obviously think it would be great if people close to these extremists could have diverted them somehow. I just don't see that Muslims have any particular ability or responsibility to do that. The kosher-deli shooter was radicalized in prison. That sounds like a failure of the penal system more than a failure on the part of French Muslims.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

“When a person comes out and promotes his heresy, promotes his debauchery, and justifies his apostasy on the basis that ‘Islam is not good,’ then there is the judiciary,” Sheikh Abdel-Gelil said. “The judiciary will get him.”

If moderate muslims believe that people who criticize muslims should be punished and extremists trade off of that sentiment to espouse crazier and crazier shit while labeling any dissent as anti-muslim, you end up with a group of people who are not going to speak out. And when you weave the idea that Islam is beyond reproach into law, you end up where we are right now.*

How does any moderate muslim go about changing the idea that one can never criticize Islam (whether it's your version of the religion or not) if the government outright states and/or the guy sitting next to you believes that any form of criticism amounts to a fucking crime?

TM

*Especially when you combine that with bombing campaigns from the West.

You make a good point, but I don't think it's right to conflate state-sponsored religion in a authoritarian regime like Egypt with moderate Muslims in Western countries. The government in Egypt (and other Arab countries) has wrapped itself in Islam for legitimacy, and so it is driven to punish atheism essentially as an attack on the state.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

they could have been more involved in what two young men in the sweet spot of doing shit, were up to.

edit- you see a 20 year old man who has never been too religious and suddenly he starts breaking for prayers maybe trying to get to know him, and if he is heading towards the crazy steer him back. I also presume a bunch of the converts are from net based recruitment. Can't others start counter-recruiting web efforts?

There isn't anything particularly remarkable about Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, though. He scares me a shit ton more than his brother. There's NOTHING particularly about his past up until the marathon that could raise flags to say "hey, this guy looks like he's headed down a wrong path" other than being related to a psychopath.

I didn't realize his trial started this week.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

So in Boston, where one of the kids had tons of friends and at least one relative who were shocked to shit at what ended up happening, what could have been done? How could he have been swayed down a different path by some iman in a mosque he doesn't go to? What sort of change could the non-Chechen muslims in the greater Boston area effected to get a handle on him?

There are about four or five significant mosques in the Boston area - a couple in the predominantly black neighborhoods of the City, one in a more mixed ethnic area, and a couple in the suburbs. There are also Islamic groups associated with the various universities. It is an active and engaged community, with no shortage of outreach for younger folks. I'm going to bet that just about anyone someone here names someone is already trying to do.

But there is significantly less openness from other communities to the Islamic community. Our Church will do an interfaith passover seder with the local synagogue, but it has done nothing with any of the mosques in the area, and that is true of almost all the denominations, with the notable exception of the synagogue right near the mosque in the mixed ethnic area - they do interact.

Maybe some of the problem isn't speaking, but listening.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

So in Boston, where one of the kids had tons of friends and at least one relative who were shocked to shit at what ended up happening, what could have been done? How could he have been swayed down a different path by some iman in a mosque he doesn't go to? What sort of change could the non-Chechen muslims in the greater Boston area effected to get a handle on him?

Either you are ignoring my other posts or you are being intentionally obtuse.

It's not about finding an entire religion (or any specific community) at fault and it's not about keeping any one person from doing something insane. It's about changing the atmosphere in which any criticism of Islam is looked upon by muslims ranging from extremists to moderates as a severely punishable offense. It's about changing an atmosphere where moderates think, "Well, these extremists are more like me than them," and "I don't agree with these extremists, but I see where they're coming from," which ends up providing comfort to these lunatics.

I can draw as many analogies as you want. But I sure as hell don't understand why, when it comes to religion, there is instantly a different standard.

If you want to talk about the ghetto and the "Stop snitching" bullshit that goes on, let's do it. I think the idea that giving any help to police at all when it comes to criminal activity (even when the information is coming from the person who has been harmed by such activity) amounts to snitching--which is punishable by death in some neighborhoods--is fucking insane. Is any one person who refuses to talk to the police at fault? No. Should the community do something to eliminate the atmosphere in which cooperating with police is worse than committing a fucking crime? Absolutely. Criminals have fostered a culture (with the help of police who have a firm "us v. them" attitude) in which something that harms just the criminals has become anathema to the community those very same criminals are destroying. That is completely ridiculous.

Mind you, I can still criticize the fucking police for (i) enforcing that us v. them attitude that contributes to the problem and (ii) having the same stupid no-snitching code (hell, theirs is probably just as strong). It's not an either/or-blame proposition. I can have conversation upon conversation about how we need to stop criminals from being criminals. I can rail on and on about how cops shouldn't treat whole communities as the enemy. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't also expect those communities to do something about changing the no-snitching culture.

And I can agree with you, and Ty, and Greedy that (i) the main problem is the group of criminals and (ii) those critics who seem to only focus on what the community should be doing to get rid of no-snitching culture are shallow morons, in each case, at the exact same time.

In my mind, it's the same standard when it comes to religious extremism. Or it should be. Tell me why I'm wrong.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

There isn't anything particularly remarkable about Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, though. He scares me a shit ton more than his brother. There's NOTHING particularly about his past up until the marathon that could raise flags to say "hey, this guy looks like he's headed down a wrong path" other than being related to a psychopath.

I didn't realize his trial started this week.

Crazy brother is a reason to be concerned.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

I find it interesting that at a time when supposedly everyone is rallying around free speech, much of the discussion is about proscribing what some people ought to say.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I don't think there is a muslim community, any more than I think there is a black community, and I think the propensity to find public figures and to turn them into spokesmen for their race or religion is a problem. It makes a little more sense with a religion like Catholicism, where you have a very strong institutional structure, but you certainly wouldn't ask Mormons to denounce a notional act of terrorism by Russian Orthodox adherents, because the two obviously don't have anything to do with each other. Islam is hardly monolithic -- it's a decentralized religious tradition that different people take in different directions. The notion that most French Muslims share important beliefs with Islamists comes from people who don't understand either very well and choose to conflate the two.

See my response to RT above. No-snitching culture crosses race lines from latino to black to white in ghetto communities. It's not a movement that has a leader who speaks out about snitching. It's a backwards idea that has gained the support of people who would never even think of committing a serious crime. It's the same principle.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Asking French Muslims -- who are 10% of the population -- to denounce the lunatic actions of a few psychopathic Islamists is not a way to dry up support for future Islamists. It's about stigmatizing all Muslims, for those who can't be bothered to tell the difference, and it's about reassuring the non-Muslim majority that the dark-skinned among them aren't all out to get them.

From what I've heard about the brother and their friend, it's not like they had or needed much support. They used Kalashnikovs and stolen cars. They hung out with another dude and shot a crossbow. The friend has a long rap sheet and converted to Islam recently, in prison.

In a way, what's really scary about these attacks is that they don't seem to have been the product of a well-organized terrorist organization or a radicalized mosque. They seem to have been a few disaffected losers who found their way to the death cult that is Islamism and eventually started shooting.

How do you stop that? Not by pressure from moderate Moslems. That's part of who these guys were reacting to.

You are so focused on stopping any one act. I am thinking about this in a different way. Reduce the tolerance for extremism amongst those who are not extremists to change the atmosphere in which people are being converted to extremists. Again, I'm not saying this is the only solution. It would be great if we weren't bombing people and constantly creating newly disaffected people. But you seem to only want to approach the problem from one angle and refuse to acknowledge that there are moderate muslims that tolerate the radical thoughts and ideas that breed extremists. I don't get it.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

eta: I obviously think it would be great if people close to these extremists could have diverted them somehow. I just don't see that Muslims have any particular ability or responsibility to do that. The kosher-deli shooter was radicalized in prison. That sounds like a failure of the penal system more than a failure on the part of French Muslims.

I'm not going to respond to this because I think it's intentionally ridiculous.

TM