Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

stop-and-frisk

You could actually make an argument that s&f ultimately increases crime. I've been arrested once by a cop and one by Sear's security. I still get nervous when encountering a cop when pulled over because it is very unusual for me to encounter such an interaction. I'm not saying I'd go criminal w/o that adversion, but I do think it has some propylatic impack on me doing shit.

If you normalize police interaction to be relatively routine, you are saying to young people, might as well steal/rob/etc because the cops are grabbing you anyway.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I fucking love this post. If I think Muslims and Muslim leaders should do exactly what Nasrallah is doing in this article you're citing, you come up with all sorts of justifications about why neither he nor anyone else should. But somehow you feel vindicated when he actually does? Talk about making no sense.

I think this is a great thing. I think it would do wonders if others in similar positions of influence did the same thing. I think stuff like this helps. I'd like it to happen more often.

TM

eta, from the article: "Dozens of other, far more moderate Muslim groups have also condemned the recent killings in Paris. Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the Great Mosque of Paris, was quick to decry the killings in no uncertain terms."

I wonder if the point of RT's post was that muslims are in fact condemning these acts of terror and ruthlessness. Even some who might have few radical bones rattling around in their closets.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

You could actually make an argument that s&f ultimately increases crime. I've been arrested once by a cop and one by Sear's security. I still get nervous when encountering a cop when pulled over because it is very unusual for me to encounter such an interaction. I'm not saying I'd go criminal w/o that adversion, but I do think it has some propylatic impack on me doing shit.

If you normalize police interaction to be relatively routine, you are saying to young people, might as well steal/rob/etc because the cops are grabbing you anyway.

Apparently you missed this sentence in my post:

"(This is without getting into things that go well beyond that focus -- like stop-and-frisk, or like the racist way in which policies that are not inherently were implemented)."


I was talking about what was the core of the "broken windows" approach -- aggressive enforcement of laws against low-level, non-violent crimes. Stop-and-frisk really has nothing to do with that -- those who claim it does are either (1) lying as a way to justify using stop-and-frisk or (2) have been misled, by the people who fit into (1).

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Hell, maybe we just have a different idea of what a moderate muslim is.

I think this is right. I have been talking about moderate muslims in Western countries, and whether they should be expected to denounce Islamist acts of violence, as people other than you have suggested. When I talk about moderate Muslims, I am thinking of the sort of people described here:

Greater Paris has about 1.5m nominal Muslims, more than any other EU city. Over the years we have come into contact with a lot of them. Fatima from the Comoros Islands, a tiny headscarfed childminder at our local crèche, became the personal protector of our most anxious child. Nowadays, most Wednesdays I watch our kids’ football practice with a west African Muslim dad. He and the coach, Mehdi — presumably a nominal Muslim — are helping my daughter in her (often literal) battle for acceptance in a boys’ team. I tell these stories to American friends and relatives when they forward me emails about fundamentalist Islam’s supposed conquest of France. ...

About five jihadis attacked Charlie Hebdo. Some 1,000 French Muslims have been involved in jihad in Iraq and Syria. That leaves perhaps 5m nominal French Muslims with more banal ambitions: a decent job, a nice apartment and something good on TV after dinner. Two people killed on Wednesday were nominal Muslims who had been helping keep Paris ticking over: Mustapha Ourrad, subeditor at Charlie Hebdo, and Ahmed Merabet, the policeman gunned down on the street while begging for mercy.

If you are talking about Muslims and laws in places like Egypt and Indonesia, then we're talking about different things.

If you are saying that we all would be safer if moderate Muslims had less tolerance for extremism than they do now, I agree. But if we're talking about the sort of moderate Muslims I am talking about, I don't think it'll make much difference, because I don't think there's much tolerance for extremism there to start with, and I don't think extremists like the ones in Paris this week and Boston two marathons ago depend much on support from the community. But I don't think we disagree much about that.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Do you think the sort of disaffected person who commits these kind of acts is really likely to be swayed by the statements of any number of authority figures?

Now if we could just get the radicals who recruit them to start saying things like this...

Jesus Christ. I think I have finally figured out what the issue is on this board. You (and others) are like a dog with a fucking bone. "This is my bone!" "Gimme the bone?" "Is that the bone?" "Where's the bone?"

Let me try to break your concentration for a minute using my previous example.

• You grew up in the South Bronx.
• All you've ever heard about talking to cops is that that constitutes snitching.
• Everyone you know tells you that snitches are bitches.
• You've seen people accused of snitching get beaten up.
• You've heard about snitches getting killed.
• Your parents tell you not to snitch.
• Community leaders say it's dangerous to be a snitch.
• Criminals actually hurt snitches.
• Cops don't protect snitches.

This is an atmosphere in which you have learned that snitching is bad. You may never say anything to the cops even though it may result in a criminal being arrested for doing something terrible. You may end up jumping in with others who are beating someone up who is a snitch. What's the real cause of the problem? Criminals. What's added to that problem? Cops using snitches and not protecting them. What could be part--not only, part--of a solution? Changing the culture in which everyone around you thinks talking to police is a terrible thing--hearing from your parents or a teacher or a community leader that cooperating with police will decrease violence in your community makes you think about it differently. The more you hear about that in your community, the more you change your mind about cooperating with the police. The more people in your community that hear this from people with influence, the less likely they are to be turned into someone who would kill another person for cooperating with the police.

Contrast with:

• You grew up in an isolated community in Jakarta.
• All you ever heard was Mohammed is great and you should never mention his name without complete reverance.
• You are taught that even asking a question about the prophet is blasphemy
• Your parents tell you not to blaspheme.
• Your Imam tells you that blasphemy should be punished.
• You've seen people who have committed blasphemy punished harshly.
• You've heard of people who have committed blasphemy being killed.
• You've never heard anyone say, "We should respect the beliefs of others," only that people who are not Muslim are infidels.
• You've seen people refer to Westerners as infidels.
• You've seen Westerners attack Muslims in lots of places all over the world.
• You've heard again and again it's because they are Muslims.
• You hear of a Westerner being killed because he has committed blasphemy.

This is an atmosphere in which you have learned that blasphemy is bad. You may never say anything that comes close to blasphemy. You may end up jumping in with others who are beating someone up who has committed blasphemy. What's the real cause of the problem? Radicals who want to force everyone to follow their religion strictly. What's added to that problem? The West bombing innocent people who are Muslim. What could be part--not only, part--of a solution? Changing the culture in which everyone around you thinks that one can never question the prophet--hearing from your parents or a teacher or a community leader that we should respect people of different faiths even if we don't disagree with them. The more you hear about that in your community, the more you change your mind about whether one should be harshly punished if they don't share your religious beliefs. The more people in your community that hear this from people with influence, the less likely they are to be turned into someone who would kill another person for committing blasphemy.

Again, it's not the sole reason why people act out that way. And any one person who does something crazy may not be reachable by the voice of reason. But I think if you change the atmosphere with other influential and/or powerful voices, you can help change results. You and Ty and RT are so focused on the one crazy guy or whether or not we should be dictating to people to try to make changes in their community that you refuse to hear anything else.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

And yet, so many Muslims end up turning down this path.

Wait, so this is your response to my saying many moderate muslims have spoken out against terrorism? Is your point that this "muslims must speak out" stuff doesn't work? Or that they ought to do something other than speak out (say, maybe, actually fight a war against ISIS, as they are doing?) Or what are you saying and how is it related to my point that lots of Muslims already do speak out against terrorism?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Well, Boston, DC sniper, Canada, they all have been handled as crimes by individuals (I suppose it is possible Paris will yet find threads to others, in France or elsewhere). None of those resulted in bombs falling. But you feel we just basically wait for the next thing- the NRA Columbine response plan?

It's too bad that the Paris Islamists all ended up dead, because it could have been helpful to understand what made them different from others like them. IMHO, if you want to avert attacks by crazy people, it would help to have a better mental-health system, and to keep mentally-ill people from buying guns. Just my two cents, and obviously not a panacea.

And I think the NRA response plan is to arm people more -- if more cartoonists had been packing, they could have returned fire and saved lives.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I wonder if the point of RT's post was that muslims are in fact condemning these acts of terror and ruthlessness. Even some who might have few radical bones rattling around in their closets.

I wonder if the point of all your posts is that that condemnation is a useless exercise that should never be taken or asked for.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Yeah, because there have been so many, many, many attacks by people who drive black cars in the past few weeks, months, and years.

And because these attacks were so clearly rooted in the teachings at, um, car dealerships about how to respond to, um, blasphemy against drivers of black cars. Y'know, because so many black-car drivers have been heard excusing black-car violence on the ground that, well, um, if a lot of people who drive black cars are poor, or if the bas stuff said about black cars is like, well, really insulting, then even if you don't support the murder done worldwide by black-car drivers you really can't condemn it but must look to broader factors.

How is the weather on the inside of your ass these days?

If you think I'm saying that one can't condemn the murders, then you're not very smart.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by replaced_texan

i never said he shouldn't. I just a) pointed out that "muslims" is a fuck ton of people and suggesting that "they" should do or say something is ridiculous, and b) that the boston guys, especially the younger one, didn't seem like they'd be swayed by what other muslims in boston would say or do.

2

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

In all these cases, what you are talking about is called alienation.

Query whether alienated people in the West used to turn to Communism, which diverted them from mass murder into other ways of subverting the dominant paradigm. With the collapse of Communism, Radical Islam has filled the void (filling the voids of the alienated), but in a more deadly way.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Was Tim McVeigh tolerated by his white, Christian communities? Did they even know what he was thinking?

When Tim McVeigh blew up the federal building, and then made his "reasons" known, I thought that Americans -- particularly white Americans -- had to do a lot more, including responding to and rejecting the voices that claimed that they don't "support" such violence but "understand" how white men feel alienated, etc.

If Americans were monthly committing mass murders in response to things like "insults to America," I would feel that Americans, particularly America's leaders, had a greater obligation to speak out forcefully, and to look to how young Americans were being taught in order to prevent this.


So, thanks for the McVeigh example. Because, yes -- the militias were tolerated by many communities (remember Rep. Helen Chenoweth?), and Americans, particularly white Americans and especially those in leadership positions, did have a responsibility to address that.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I invented that.

Will send you a nickel by PayPal whenever I use it.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Wait, so this is your response to my saying many moderate muslims have spoken out against terrorism? Is your point that this "muslims must speak out" stuff doesn't work? Or that they ought to do something other than speak out (say, maybe, actually fight a war against ISIS, as they are doing?) Or what are you saying and how is it related to my point that lots of Muslims already do speak out against terrorism?

My point is Muslim leaders need to do more. I would propose starting with intensely criticizing laws in any nation that provide for prison or death for insulting Islam.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Contrast with:

• You grew up in an isolated community in Jakarta.
• All you ever heard was Mohammed is great and you should never mention his name without complete reverance.
• You are taught that even asking a question about the prophet is blasphemy
• Your parents tell you not to blaspheme.
• Your Imam tells you that blasphemy should be punished.
• You've seen people who have committed blasphemy punished harshly.
• You've heard of people who have committed blasphemy being killed.
• You've never heard anyone say, "We should respect the beliefs of others," only that people who are not Muslim are infidels.
• You've seen people refer to Westerners as infidels.
• You've seen Westerners attack Muslims in lots of places all over the world.
• You've heard again and again it's because they are Muslims.
• You hear of a Westerner being killed because he has committed blasphemy.

TM

Actually, in that isolated village, you probably have spent some time reading and reciting the Quran and the early Hadith, so you've heard discussions about Jews and Christians being fellow people of the book and descendants of Abraham. You've had some discussion on different faiths based on the discussion in those books, and you've likely heard some pros and cons for a confessional law and practice. You have heard many questions about the Prophet, you have particularly learned that he is not divine and not to be treated as divine the way Christians treat Christ. However, the Quran is the world of Allah, unlike the Christian's bible, and so has a very high literal status.

You're also in Jakarta, so besides interacting with a significant Christian community, you are probably aware of the Chinese Buddhist community, who are true infidels rather than people of the book. Expect that contrast to have been made, and for Christians to come out well in comparison.

Also, it is very likely you have a few Haji in the community, who have been to Mecca and can tell you stories of the broader Islamic world directly. They may be a radicalizing influence or they be a worldly influence.