Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

I had a friend who worked as a social worker slash investigator for death penalty appeals in Georgia, and what I learned from him is that some machinery of death is more in need of tinkering than others.

We should send Temple Grandin to Georgia?

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I still think that the defendant's counsel in the case asserting that leniency-for-testimony deals were unlawful as providing consideration for testimony had it right. They would have gutted the prosecutorial system, but they had it right.

Amen. Plea bargaining in this manner is a gaping hole in the moral grounding of our criminal justice system, and prosecutors have every incentive to pull it as wide as possible at the edges.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Amen. Plea bargaining in this manner is a gaping hole in the moral grounding of our criminal justice system, and prosecutors have every incentive to pull it as wide as possible at the edges.

Maybe not every incentive. Presumably many of them have some interest in using the massive discretion placed in them to do something approximating justice.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Maybe not every incentive. Presumably many of them have some interest in using the massive discretion placed in them to do something approximating justice.

I don't think they give that much discretion to the ones who are only a couple months out of law school.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Maybe not every incentive. Presumably many of them have some interest in using the massive discretion placed in them to do something approximating justice.

I have recently learned from the local prosecutor who is doggedly pursuing the leaders of a peaceful Black Lives Matter protest who had the temerity to bring a fairly normal weekend-size crowd to the rotunda of the Mall of America that prosecutors have an ethical duty to prosecute all "crimes" and no discretion at all.

She seems smart.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Amen. Plea bargaining in this manner is a gaping hole in the moral grounding of our criminal justice system, and prosecutors have every incentive to pull it as wide as possible at the edges.

The practical problems of not doing that, however, are enormous. You could say that under no circumstances can a prosecutor offer leniency for testimony against another defendant -- but how do you enforce that or draw lines? In any crime that involves more than one person, a confession or guilty plea will necessarily implicate others, co-perpetrators are often key witnesses, and you can't take the Fifth after a guilty plea.

Here's an illustration. Back when I worked at a defense firm, we had a client who was arrested at the airport with a suitcase full of heroin -- like 20 pounds or more. He was a mule, and this was the first time he'd done it (that was established by him having to get a passport to make the trip). He immediately rolled on the guy he was supposed to meet, who then immediately rolled on the higher-up guys (in time to board his flight to Chicago with the drugs). This ultimately led to top figures in a Nigerian drug ring being arrested and tried.

My guy had to wait until after the trial for his own sentencing, because the prosecutors didn't want him to be cross-examined on the ground of having gotten leniency on the sentence (the Federal guidelines were, and I think still are, based primarily on the quantity of drugs involved, rather than the significance of an individual's role -- so he was facing a potential decades'-long sentence). That wait ultimately lasted several years, as there were various intermediate appeals and so forth.

The sentencing recommendation ultimately had something to do with the fact that he had provided helpful testimony. I don't honestly remember if that was explicit, but certainly that was there all the time -- after all, the threat of a 40-year sentence if he didn't confess was part of why he rolled at the beginning. So, that it happened after he testified may have reduced the obvious quid pro quo nature, but that he testified consistent with the initial offer of proof statements was critical.

I don't see how you undo that situation, nor that you would necessarily want to. Certainly putting this kid in jail for 40 years would be an enormous waste (while awaiting sentencing he actually got his life back together). You could offer leniency solely for him pleading guilty, but that would be kabuki -- everyone knows you want his help to get the higher-ups, and that's the only way to get them.

Obviously the sentencing guidelines are a big part of the problem, and they are routinely leveraged in this way. But even without that, under any rational approach he'd have faced a lot of time -- 20 pounds of heroin -- and it's hard to say that the system didn't work correctly here.

Babies and bathwater. Don't know how it gets addressed.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Adder

I have recently learned from the local prosecutor who is doggedly pursuing the leaders of a peaceful Black Lives Matter protest who had the temerity to bring and fairly normal weekend-size crowd to the rotunda of the Mall of America that prosecutors have an ethical duty to prosecute all "crimes" and no discretion at all.

She seems smart.

Maybe she'll intentionally fuck up the grand jury proceeding so they don't indict.

Oh, wait -- did you say black people were involved? Never mind.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

crim sentencing stuff

The Antitrust Division is pretty darn keen on telling people how its leniency program, which offers amnesty from criminal prosecution for people who blow the whistle on conduct they don't already know about, among other things, is a major driver of cases for them.

But maybe it's different with someone's life on the line?

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You know Wonk. He wants to tax everything.

Don't forget to tax the pennies on my eyes.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

(I won't say "DP" here because some people get confused)

I only had to think about for a couple minutes. Well, I figured it out right away but let my mind keep wandering.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Adder

I have recently learned from the local prosecutor who is doggedly pursuing the leaders of a peaceful Black Lives Matter protest who had the temerity to bring a fairly normal weekend-size crowd to the rotunda of the Mall of America that prosecutors have an ethical duty to prosecute all "crimes" and no discretion at all.

She seems smart.

I had dinner with about a third of the board. About half of them will tell you THEY thought I was smart.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Don't forget to tax the pennies on my eyes.

I have suggested burying me with a couple of old roman coins on my eyes, so that, years from, some archaeologist will discover that the Romans were in America.

One hopes to cause trouble even in death.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I have suggested burying me with a couple of old roman coins on my eyes, so that, years from, some archaeologist will discover that the Romans were in America.

One hopes to cause trouble even in death.

It wouldn't work. You'd have to go down a few dozen feet at least, through sandstone, most likely, then refill if flawlessly. Maybe before that had that magic rolling x-ray in the ground thing I saw on the tee-vee. But now. No sir.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Maybe not every incentive. Presumably many of them have some interest in using the massive discretion placed in them to do something approximating justice.

Rarely do considerations beyond the W/L record and politics come into play.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Maybe she'll intentionally fuck up the grand jury proceeding so they don't indict.

Oh, wait -- did you say black people were involved? Never mind.

I think Ferguson is fucking up the coherence of everyone’s positions on prosecutorial discretion.