Objectively intelligent.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

My place is more the passive-aggressive model.

"Icky, you aren't in the office, we're all worried about you . . . is everything OK at home?"

"Big boss man is walking around and noticed that you weren't here. . . I didn't know what to say."

"Let's discuss it next time you are in the office."

So they're mainly nebbishes. What you're describing is death by a thousand annoyances.

Re death of the office, late 90s, I had a friend at a top tier firm in Philadelphia who worked with a dude who tried to work something like foreign trading desk hours. Wanted to avoid people and maximize time. I don't know, but I'm willing to bet he was shown the door.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

At my last big law you had to show Saturday face, but you also kinda wanted to. I’d spend my week putting out fires, so I really could only think about my projects where I needed help on Saturdays. If a GA was in, em might get the file. For me to wait until Monday? Well that would have to be the Mother of all GA, 10 times better lawyer than that Oliver Douglas.


Edit: sorry about the Jets. Only a Lions fan can know your pain.

You were expected to violate Shabbat?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But he’s right. Lots of people are actually enjoying a much more balanced life during this pandemic. They don’t have to commute, they don’t have to waste time going through silly rituals at the office, and productivity is up among most companies.

Much of what we do in our work is performative busywork. Covid has exposed it as such. And there is no defense for wasting time and energy in performative acts. Or worse, making others below you do so.

If you don’t think there is something enriching, something of value, inseeing all of the inefficiencies and unnecessary rituals removed, your powers of perception must be dead. How many years did I take a train into the office, or drive down the expressway in heavy traffic, to go sit in a huge office building and do what I could’ve done from my fucking kitchen? Why did we all have to wear all those stupid corporate casual outfits? Why did we waste so much gas, at destruction of the environment, to drive to and fro for no good reason?

A lot of the legacy businesses and legacy rituals that Covid has removed from our lives should have been gone long ago if we were at all interested in efficiency and true work/life balance.

I feel bad for people in service industries who are disproportionately impacted, and we should give them a shit pile of money to bridge them until they can go back to work. But I don’t think it is heresy, or should be considered verboten, to say that this thing has some silver linings for a lot of people.

If nothing else, it is showing the idiocy of our prior workaholism. You don’t have to run around, and fly everywhere, and sit through endless meetings, to get things done. People are more productive when they work from their houses and can actually focus on the job, rather than put up with loads of people taxing their limited powers of attention at the office. Often with administrative horseshit. It’s also eliminating a lot of office politics, and weeding out the people who thrived on playing those games.

All of the victims of Covid are worth grieving. Except one: Busywork. That Covid has clarified what work is necessary and what is superfluous, and made us question why we ever bothered doing the latter, is a gift.

I don't really do that crap anyway and miss my, mostly-active, commutes. It's a lot harder to get out for an hour of biking during the day than it is ride to and from the office (when that time is now taking the kid to and from her grandma's). But sure, hopefully people will learn to devalue those sorts of games.

I won't miss the winter snowy-day bus commutes though.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Eliminating the commute is the mother of all game changers.

I live about 6 miles from the office. It's more than 3x as far as I've lived from work since law school. You didn't need a pandemic and staying home to learn that commuting blows (as by association, living in the suburbs).

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

I don't really do that crap anyway and miss my, mostly-active, commutes. It's a lot harder to get out for an hour of biking during the day than it is ride to and from the office (when that time is now taking the kid to and from her grandma's). But sure, hopefully people will learn to devalue those sorts of games.

I won't miss the winter snowy-day bus commutes though.

Don't know if I really like these Zoom hearings, however. The Zoom crapped out in my most recent one while my opponent was arguing. That's disconcerting.

For land use and tax abatement approvals, however, Zoom is a godsend. The cranks and lunatics who like to show up at public meetings and protest zoning applications or approval of abatements, or just generally rant, can no longer do so.

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

So they're mainly nebbishes. What you're describing is death by a thousand annoyances.

Re death of the office, late 90s, I had a friend at a top tier firm in Philadelphia who worked with a dude who tried to work something like foreign trading desk hours. Wanted to avoid people and maximize time. I don't know, but I'm willing to bet he was shown the door.

Thousand and one. “Is your paralegal ever in the office? I need to drop off original documents”.

It’s just a series of little annoyances to perpetuate power.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Thousand and one. “Is your paralegal ever in the office? I need to drop off original documents”.

It’s just a series of little annoyances to perpetuate power.

Narcissistic personality disorder is a recognized mental illness. A narcissist's disorder is that he is self-obsessed and does not care much for others.

Desire to acquire and wield power over others is not considered a mental illness.

Why?

Shouldn't it be one? If a narcissist has mental issues, surely a guy who, like your bosses, wants to exert power over others for no other reason than to remind them he has it, and to keep others somewhat in fear of him, has a much worse set of mental issues. The narcissist harms others by neglect or collaterally, by focusing exclusively on himself. The person who seeks power and uses it on others - even if just to remind them he has it and they don't (or so he thinks) - is actively imposing himself on others to their detriment or annoyance.

If I was having drinks with you and you said, "What do you like about work?" and I replied, "I like that I have power and can use it to control or intimidate others," you'd find an excuse to leave near immediately. You'd think me deeply, seriously flawed - probably sociopathic. And yet no one critiques people who desire and seek to flex or punch down with power. It's assumed this desire to have power and use it on others is a natural human behavior.

Am I wrong to suggest that to crave power shows extreme anti-social tendencies? And to use it on others with less power, even in the passive aggressive manner you cited, is a form of cruelty. Maybe I'm crazy, but I've always wanted to make people who were working for me happy and feeling a parity with me. The idea of, as you say, making people "stand on their hind legs for peanuts" is warped. Only a deeply sick mind would think that's a good way to treat underlings of any sort. I hate seeing people do that kind of shit to their pets.

YMMV, but I think we need to add "Power Craving" and "Use of Power on Others" as disorders in the DSM-IV.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by LessinSF

You are speaking taboo truths, except for the quote above, as to me. I need to into the office. My home has too many temptations, from the TV to the couch to the fridge to the bed

For me it's the pantry/fridge. Snack time!

I've been running more during covid and have still gained weight.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

To put the two last posts together, my place doesn't want to let go.

They need to see faces (when they are there -- it doesn't matter if you are in and working when no one else is) that's why you have to send multiple "all lawyers" emails if you're in on a Sunday. Not because everyone needs to know if you've forgotten the copier code, because the bosses need to see you standing on your hind legs for peanuts.

I'm actually super curious on how this pans out in a year or so. I'm infinitely more productive here with barking dogs and my husband vacuu-sealing stuff in the kitchen and the distraction of a million things in my house than I ever was at the office.

One of the admins outside my door and an eggshell neighbor made it so I was always worried there about the noise I made. Here, none whatsoever. If I blare RATM while I'm going through documents, my husband is happy to hear it in the next room. I have more time to get work shit done because I'm not commuting or having to deal with small talk or even moving from meeting a to meeting b. Everyone has figured out WebEx, and while the number of meetings is up, we're getting better at getting to the point quickly and getting out asap. I'm super-siloed in my practice, and I don't need to walk down the hall to bounce ideas off a colleague's head.

From late September until this week, we were going in once a week on a staggered basis for some unclear reason. I was ok with it because there was no one else in the building and I could get some affidavits notarized, but I didn't see the point in it. Numbers are up again, and we're at home for the foreseeable future. A good hunk of the employees at work will be in the front of the line for the vaccine, but I'm happy to wait here.

I suspect that there will be a lot of moving once this is over. Some employers won't be able to let go of how it was done before. Some employees will never be able to go back.

I don't have kids. I have a job that I can do this. My situation is different than tons of other people who need/want the structure of the old way of doing things. I work in a fairly traditional place, and I'm really interested in whether or not the changes will be permanent. I suspect some of them will be for some people. For others, not at all.

Employment lawyers are going to have an interesting few years ahead of them.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

I've been running more during covid and have still gained weight.

We’ve noticed.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

We’ve noticed.

With Coltrane out running on the roads, I'd buy concrete futures for Chicago. Can you imagine the damage he is doing to them with all those pounds? #amirite? #elephantwalk

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

For me it's the pantry/fridge. Snack time!

I've been running more during covid and have still gained weight.

I am far more focused at home with just me and the squirrels around. Wife and son work at the local school, but even when they work remotley, door is closed and pedal to the metal.

Weight has been stable as I have managed an outdoor running streak of 196 days but don't know how people do it through the shit weather.

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Narcissistic personality disorder is a recognized mental illness. A narcissist's disorder is that he is self-obsessed and does not care much for others.

Desire to acquire and wield power over others is not considered a mental illness.

Why?

Shouldn't it be one? If a narcissist has mental issues, surely a guy who, like your bosses, wants to exert power over others for no other reason than to remind them he has it, and to keep others somewhat in fear of him, has a much worse set of mental issues. The narcissist harms others by neglect or collaterally, by focusing exclusively on himself. The person who seeks power and uses it on others - even if just to remind them he has it and they don't (or so he thinks) - is actively imposing himself on others to their detriment or annoyance.

If I was having drinks with you and you said, "What do you like about work?" and I replied, "I like that I have power and can use it to control or intimidate others," you'd find an excuse to leave near immediately. You'd think me deeply, seriously flawed - probably sociopathic. And yet no one critiques people who desire and seek to flex or punch down with power. It's assumed this desire to have power and use it on others is a natural human behavior.

Am I wrong to suggest that to crave power shows extreme anti-social tendencies? And to use it on others with less power, even in the passive aggressive manner you cited, is a form of cruelty. Maybe I'm crazy, but I've always wanted to make people who were working for me happy and feeling a parity with me. The idea of, as you say, making people "stand on their hind legs for peanuts" is warped. Only a deeply sick mind would think that's a good way to treat underlings of any sort. I hate seeing people do that kind of shit to their pets.

YMMV, but I think we need to add "Power Craving" and "Use of Power on Others" as disorders in the DSM-IV.

A few friends I have who have left described it as flat out mental illness. I only use that analogy as the squirrels seem to do it sua sponte because I can't throw them peanuts fast enough. I try to remind them that they don't have to do it but they are hungry.

The greatest compliment I ever got was from a paralegal who worked for us, but not directly for me but with whom I interacted on a number of projects.

She said, and I forgot the context "You always treat people as equals." One of my feel-good moments.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

I am far more focused at home with just me and the squirrels around. Wife and son work at the local school, but even when they work remotley, door is closed and pedal to the metal.

Weight has been stable as I have managed an outdoor running streak of 196 days but don't know how people do it through the shit weather.

I gained 15 lbs. but run every day so no worries. Then in July I tripped in my office and smashed my neck on a chair back- Ripley’s- and spent a night in the hospital. The throat was fine next day but I spent the night with a BP cuff on and my BP was silly high. Sine I lost 30 pounds. Mainly eating like a normal person, but also a 2 mile power walk early evening after a run late morning.

Winter is easy. Layers and get out the door. And have a machine of some sort for a day or so a week: I’ve a Nordic Track- I run Monday at 15 degrees, then tomorrow I get to just use the NT. 1 day at a time!

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I'm actually super curious on how this pans out in a year or so. I'm infinitely more productive here with barking dogs and my husband vacuu-sealing stuff in the kitchen and the distraction of a million things in my house than I ever was at the office.

I have more time to get work shit done because I'm not commuting or having to deal with small talk or even moving from meeting a to meeting b. Everyone has figured out WebEx, and while the number of meetings is up, we're getting better at getting to the point quickly and getting out asap. I'm super-siloed in my practice, and I don't need to walk down the hall to bounce ideas off a colleague's head.

This is the same for me. The endless parade of zombies asking stupid questions has stopped; now if they have a question the only option is email, to which they get responses. While the individual lawyers have figured out Zoom depositions, my office has had ONE attorney-wide zoom call in 9 months.

From late September until this week, we were going in once a week on a staggered basis for some unclear reason. I was ok with it because there was no one else in the building and I could get some affidavits notarized, but I didn't see the point in it.
Numbers are up again, and we're at home for the foreseeable future.

I first went into the office in June, once again in July, then once again in August. The mask-free zone wasn't for me. When my boss called me out on it, over the phone, I simply told him "I'll make my own health decisions thanks." My son was in the car and said "He talks to you like you're a second-grader."

And this was before the positivity rate spiked recently.

I suspect that there will be a lot of moving once this is over. Some employers won't be able to let go of how it was done before. Some employees will never be able to go back.

I don't have kids. I have a job that I can do this. My situation is different than tons of other people who need/want the structure of the old way of doing things. I work in a fairly traditional place, and I'm really interested in whether or not the changes will be permanent. I suspect some of them will be for some people. For others, not at all.

Employment lawyers are going to have an interesting few years ahead of them.

My son has got one more semester left in a Master's program so we'll see what happens.