Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The progressive left is primarily focused on culture-war issues that are not immediate concerns for other people.

Are you using "progressive left" to distinguish from socialist left? But the lefties I see are pretty focused on health care.

It's also a little weird how little attention is paid to the very real possibility that all parents will soon have access to childcare that won't bankrupt them. Which is probably because Dems aren't fighting with each other about it.

Around these parts policing has been a major issue, with the progressive left trying to do something that is an immediate concern for a lot of people but also left a lot of room for the status quo to fear monger other people into saying no.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Adder

Around these parts policing has been a major issue, with the progressive left trying to do something that is an immediate concern for a lot of people but also left a lot of room for the status quo to fear monger other people into saying no.

It was not just the “status quo” (whatever that means in this case) that was deeply concerned about the ballot amendment to defund the police. (This is an oversimplification of the ballot amendment, but it will do for now.) The ballot amendment deeply split the black and economically-challenged neighborhoods that are actually the ones most likely to be affected by the amendment, because these neighborhoods are not only the most likely to be victims of abusive policing, but also the most likely to be affected by mobile drug dealing, gang violence, etc., etc. The City Council was (rightly, in my opinion) harshly criticized for rallying behind empty “defund” rhetoric without having done the hard work of figuring out what that meant or how they would would keep the most vulnerable neighborhoods safe once they defunded the police and, most egregiously, without seeking any meaningful input from black community leaders in these neighborhoods. It did not help when the City Council president went on CNN and, when asked what people were supposed to when their house was being broken into, responded that this question came from a place of privilege, immediately making her a cartoon meme of the fear-mongering right. It also did not help that she lived in a neighborhood in South Minneapolis far less likely to actually be impacted by home invasions and other violent crime than the city’s north side.

“The debate has also played out among racial and geographical lines — with many Black residents of north Minneapolis accusing liberal White residents of south Minneapolis of supporting ‘an experiment’ that could prove harmful to Black residents as they are trying to be better allies in the aftermath of Floyd’s death.“

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ot-initiative/

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

It was not just the “status quo” (whatever that means in this case) that was deeply concerned about the ballot amendment to defund the police.

Whoops, gotta stop you right there as defunding the police was not on the ballot. (yes, I saw your parenthetical).

The City Council was (rightly, in my opinion) harshly criticized for rallying behind empty “defund” rhetoric without having done the hard work of figuring out what that meant

So, there are two frustrating things about this very common take. First, it does not acknowledge the years of work from city staff, including a detailed analysis of 911 calls and the resources necessary to respond to them, and the various non-police resources being stood up across 7 city departments. They absolutely have been doing the work. They just don't have the final org chart for the proposed department of public safety because the city attorney told them they couldn't (and they do no currently have the power to create one anyway, that's what the amendment was for).

Second, nobody defunded, or was about to defund, anything. We had a whole giant flip out over an amendment that amounted to nothing more than a reorganization of city departments (yes, with the potential for fewer police in the long run).

“The debate has also played out among racial and geographical lines — with many Black residents of north Minneapolis accusing liberal White residents of south Minneapolis of supporting ‘an experiment’ that could prove harmful to Black residents as they are trying to be better allies in the aftermath of Floyd’s death.“

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ot-initiative/

It's super fun to credit white progressives with the longstanding work of groups like Reclaim the Block and Black Visions Collective.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Adder

Whoops, gotta stop you right there as defunding the police was not on the ballot. (yes, I saw your parenthetical).

So, there are two frustrating things about this very common take. First, it does not acknowledge the years of work from city staff, including a detailed analysis of 911 calls and the resources necessary to respond to them, and the various non-police resources being stood up across 7 city departments. They absolutely have been doing the work. They just don't have the final org chart for the proposed department of public safety because the city attorney told them they couldn't (and they do no currently have the power to create one anyway, that's what the amendment was for).

Second, nobody defunded, or was about to defund, anything. We had a whole giant flip out over an amendment that amounted to nothing more than a reorganization of city departments (yes, with the potential for fewer police in the long run).

It's super fun to credit white progressives with the longstanding work of groups like Reclaim the Block and Black Visions Collective.

Fine, if you want to fight over semantics despite my disclaimer, here is the actual wording on the ballot:

“Shall the Minneapolis City Charter be amended to remove the Police Department and replace it with a Department of Public Safety that employs a comprehensive public health approach to the delivery of functions by the Department of Public Safety, with those specific functions to be determined by the Mayor and City Council by ordinance; which will not be subject to exclusive mayoral power over its establishment, maintenance, and command; and which could include licensed peace officers (police officers), if necessary, to fulfill its responsibilities for public safety, with the general nature of the amendments being briefly indicated in the explanatory note below, which is made a part of this ballot?”

I’m not saying no work was done, but to argue that we were just an org chart away from a functioning plan as to how this new Department of Public Safety was going to effectively replace the Police Department seems hopelessly naive to me.

The fact that there were minority groups that have long been trying to defund (or reorganize or abolish or whatever word you want to choose) is not something that I disputed. The point of the quote that I pulled out of the article was that many black people from the north side, including many vocal longstanding black community leaders, felt disenfranchised from this movement that was supposedly in large part about helping them. And whether you agree that they were or not, the fact that many of them felt this way was a huge problem. Which was probably why the wards on north side actually voted AGAINST the amendment.

https://www.minnpost.com/elections/2...lot-questions/

And this was the point I was addressing. The frustrating and very common take that the ballot amendment was defeated because of fear mongering by the status quo (and there was certainly plenty of right-wing fear mongering), ignores all of the above problems.

There was a moment in the wake of the Floyd murder where there could have been real change to address the horrific and ongoing history of abusive police practices in the Twin Cities, including due to the fact that we had (and have) a black police chief who at least appears to want widespread systemic change within the department. And I am not saying how that change should have occurred. Maybe it was to replace the Police Department, maybe it was to reign in a corrupt police union, maybe it was to work within the existing system, maybe it was some combination of the above. But I’m afraid the whole thing was horribly botched and the moment may have been lost.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Which was probably why the wards on north side actually voted AGAINST the amendment.

They did, but in nowhere near the proportion of the no vote in the Golden Crescent (or whatever you want to call it).

Meanwhile, the strongest support was in the diverse communities of the central city (and on campus). The racial politics on this were complex.

There was a moment in the wake of the Floyd murder where there could have been real change to address the horrific and ongoing history of abusive police practices in the Twin Cities

But wait, our re-elected Mayor has sworn he's for real reform?? (He's not, so you're right to lament missing the opportunity).

police chief who at least appears to want widespread systemic change within the department

I'm honestly not clear where that appearance comes from or, if it is an accurate description of what's in his heart, that he actually has any power to create that kind of change.

Maybe it was to replace the Police Department, maybe it was to reign in a corrupt police union, maybe it was to work within the existing system, maybe it was some combination of the above.

There is no reigning in the police department while the charter ensures them full employment, while they are immune from city council policymaking because they can credibly threaten the mayor's reelection. If we're being honest, there may be no doing it anyway.

That said, it's a bit amazing the mayor got reelected amid a sick out and work slowdown.

[Icky Thump]

all or part of the CLE system with a version of the Squid Game.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

WE can make ME the next president. Can I count on your support?

Yes, unless you're asking me to fundraise.

Originally Posted by Adder

Are you using "progressive left" to distinguish from socialist left?

No.

But the lefties I see are pretty focused on health care.

It's also a little weird how little attention is paid to the very real possibility that all parents will soon have access to childcare that won't bankrupt them. Which is probably because Dems aren't fighting with each other about it.

Around these parts policing has been a major issue, with the progressive left trying to do something that is an immediate concern for a lot of people but also left a lot of room for the status quo to fear monger other people into saying no.

I'm not seeing anyone talking about healthcare or childcare.

What is the progressive left trying to do about policing? I hear slogans like "Defund the Police" that seemed designed to lose moderate support and not get anything concrete done.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

What is the progressive left trying to do about policing? I hear slogans like "Defund the Police" that seemed designed to lose moderate support and not get anything concrete done.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

I am not sure what any of this even means.

George Floyd was murdered with no good reason, but there were times in his life he did shit that called for a response from someone carrying a gun.

I've heard of keeping social workers around to send on calls for the mentally ill, which sounds nice, I guess, for bigger cities. But my suburb isn't keeping social workers around 24/7, and it seems the worst police abuses are in smaller cities? Plus, too often the mentally ill are armed, so I'm not sure a social worker is the answer.

The two most poignant moments I can recall on LT are 1 Fringey's accident, and 2 Adder posting during the George Floyd riots. He had a post about how he spent the night on his front porch holding a baseball bat. I have never felt more empathy for anyone on here (well maybe Slave for the whole paigs thing?). But if the mob had come to his home the bat would only have made things worse. I know the Twin Cities po-po was ignoring the riots, but in theory Adder needed a force of armed people those nights.

The answer has to be integrating police forces more and being more selective about whom is given a badge I think.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I am not sure what any of this even means.

9 members (a veto-proof majority) of the city council stood on that stage and pledged to "dismantle the MPD as we know it." Because the activists who organized the event put those words on the stage, we're supposed to believe that those 9 meant to get rid of the police this fall. This is because they are all wild-eyed radicals in disguise (they are not).

I've heard of keeping social workers around to send on calls for the mentally ill

Locally, we just did a multi-year, detailed analysis of 911 calls, finding that a substantial majority of them did not require someone with a gun, and that virtually none of them that started out without that need escalated to need one. Unfortunately, I don't know more details than that because it hasn't gotten much press.

But my suburb isn't keeping social workers around 24/7, and it seems the worst police abuses are in smaller cities?

That's an interesting point. Your city likely has far fewer police, per capita, than a big city. It also probably doesn't have over-policed communities.

As you note, it nonetheless likely has some super racists policing.

Adder posting during the George Floyd riots.

Flower's experience was much more harrowing than mine. He was much closer to it.

in theory Adder needed a force of armed people those nights.

We pay one. They quit on us, and have been on a work slowdown/sick out ever since.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

That's an interesting point. Your city likely has far fewer police, per capita, than a big city. It also probably doesn't have over-policed communities.

As you note, it nonetheless likely has some super racists policing.

Actually it is a 70% dem 1 square mile suburb 2 miles north of Detroit. It is probably 90% white, but the police are 50% black. I doubt very much there are super racists on the police force, at least I hope/expect not.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

9 members (a veto-proof majority) of the city council stood on that stage and pledged to "dismantle the MPD as we know it." Because the activists who organized the event put those words on the stage, we're supposed to believe that those 9 meant to get rid of the police this fall. This is because they are all wild-eyed radicals in disguise (they are not).

So people should just read in the wink and nod that they weren't serious?

Locally, we just did a multi-year, detailed analysis of 911 calls, finding that a substantial majority of them did not require someone with a gun, and that virtually none of them that started out without that need escalated to need one. Unfortunately, I don't know more details than that because it hasn't gotten much press.

I've somehow fallen into the groove of watching Adam 12 reruns on MeTV 5-6 weekdays. There is a weird vibe to seeing network TV trying to process drug use and hippies and race in the early 70s and still make it fun to watch!

But the policing moments are also mostly boring things that Flower and I could probably handle- until the ones happen where flower and I would be running away like crazy. None of that shit is predictable I'm afraid.

Flower's experience was much more harrowing than mine. He was much closer to it.

ehh, maybe, but who has empathy for flower? He's a fucking GOD! I honestly worried for you those nights because of your posts.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

So people should just read in the wink and nod that they weren't serious?

People should read what the CMs actually said, which was that it was gong to be a process over time to change how we do public safety, not a sudden adoption of chaos.

But the policing moments are also mostly boring things that Flower and I could probably handle- until the ones happen where flower and I would be running away like crazy. None of that shit is predictable I'm afraid.

My impression of the 911 study was the it turned out to be pretty predictable.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

So people should just read in the wink and nod that they weren't serious?

A veto-proof majority of the City Council stood on a stage with the giant words “DEFUND POLICE“ in front of it and talked about dismantling the police department, and how the time for incrementalism was past. The notion that nobody was supposed to believe that they actually intended to defund the police is quaint, and if they were not being serious, the irony was lost on many:

“Last June, a veto-proof majority of Minneapolis City Council members pledged to defund and dismantle the police department.”

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/25/10002...rm-have-soften

“Over three months ago, a majority of the Minneapolis City Council pledged to defund the city’s police department, making a powerful statement that reverberated across the country.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/26/u...nd-police.html

When everyone learned that there were no specific plans, and that nobody really even knew what “defund” or “dismantle” meant (thus plunging Minneapolis into this terrible limbo where many police basically stopped stopped doing their job), some members of City Council switched course, while one embarrassingly tried to argue that he did not see the sign and did not know defunding police was on the table. (In his defense, from his perspective, he may have thought he was attending a “ECILOP DNUFED” rally.)

There is a lot of blame to go around for how this opportunity for this whole situation was mismanaged, and to put all the blame at the feet of the City Council is unfair. But they did their fair share of mismanagement, in part because it was not a popular position to acknowledge both that 1) the Twin Cities has a long and horrific history of abusive policing and that prior efforts at reform have been half-hearted and ineffectual, and 2) despite this history of police abuse, there are vulnerable communities that rely on police to keep them safe. When we were discussing this issue probably a year ago, I talked being involved with a local domestic violence prevention organization. Many advocates there (many of whom are young progressive people of color) state that they believe they have a good working relationship with the police, and that while this was not always the case, they now largely saw the police as valuable partners who are able to respond effectively and with compassion and sensitivity to domestic violence calls to protect victims of domestic violence. It was probably two posts after this that Adder said, “It’s not like the police ever make anyone safer anyways.” I understand that this was just hyperbole on Adder’s part, but it was telling. And Adder is correct that the “Defund Police” rhetoric was distorted by a fear-mongering right who wanted people to believe that any attempts to rethink policing would result in a swift devolution to nihilism. But, to blame the failure of the ballot amendment on a “fear-mongering status quo” misses a whole lot of the story.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Jesus, man, you're smarter than this.