Politics: A new beginning

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
I hope you used a towel to wipe it off the dusty ground.

Let the heathens spill theirs
on the dusty ground.
God will strike them down for
each sperm that can't be found.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
I don't recall any censorship. There are many words one can use on this board, and many of them will predictably draw responses. With maturity comes responsibility. Or so bilmore tells his Duff-loving daughter. That's Hillary, not the beer.

I wasn't talking about censorship, merely social/community acceptable behavior.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
In other words, I feel that your choice of conception as the dividing line is not as logically inevitable as you are making it out to be.

But, it is entirely consistent with many, many other dividing lines that we as a society - hell, as a species throughout history - have accepted. It's that pesky "life' thing. I can get in big trouble for stabbing you, but less trouble, relatively, if I stab your already-cold-and-dead corpse. Conception, at least, allows for a bright-line determination that component parts have now combined successfully to make a "human life" with all necessary accoutrements and accessories. Everything beyond that point is social utility, which is another way of saying, let's balance our preferences, and that leaves grandma at risk, and started a civil war.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
In other words, I thought Dean would have ignored this and just kept on campaigning. He didn't. I was impressed by that.

All of the media critics that I've heard in the last few days have said that Dean's best move would be to make fun of the situation, explain it a little bit and move on. Pretending that it didn't happen wouldn't help him at all, but harping on it too much would make it the central issue.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Let the heathens spill theirs
on the dusty ground.
God will strike them down for
each sperm that can't be found.

And gawd said, keep your floors clean?

And it was good?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Not Me
What is a human being? Note I did not ask you at what point an embryo becomes a human being. I am asking you to DEFINE what you mean when you use the term "human being."

Frankly, I don't know. And I have thought long and hard on it.

Now I am asking you to tell me at what point that transition occurs.

I don't know, and have great respect for a court that tells me they don't either.

But if the absolutists focus the debate elsewhere, they will lose, too. See my point above that abortion will never be outlawed in all 50 states. It's not going to happen.

I think 20 years ago, people were more likely to tolerate abortion at whim and that the pro-life efforts have changed minds on this point. Not saying that they changed any pro-choice person's mind about first trimester abortions, but I think them keeping this issue at the forefront of the political debate has helped to switch many pro-choice people's mantra from "a woman's right to choose" to "safe, legal, and rare." And that's progress.

Maybe not. I'm Catholic, and would describe myself as reasonably pro-choice. 20 years ago, there were not a lot of Catholics out there who thought like I do. Today there are. I think many, many people are pushed to defend broader pro-choice laws by the vitriol we see from the right to lifers.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by bilmore
Conception, at least, allows for a bright-line determination that component parts have now combined successfully to make a "human life" with all necessary accoutrements and accessories.

Sure, and I'll bet you like to eat the cookie dough before baking it.

Yes. Conception is a nice, tidy, bright line. So is birth. It's just as nice and tidy, in fact, even more so, because not only is the human live actually alive, it is doing so on its own, with no actual physical connection to the mother.

Calling a fetus human doesn't mean it's entitled to all the protections we afford real humans, any more than my saying my dog thinks its people means he gets to vote.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
All of the media critics that I've heard in the last few days have said that Dean's best move would be to make fun of the situation, explain it a little bit and move on. Pretending that it didn't happen wouldn't help him at all, but harping on it too much would make it the central issue.

Today Dean called for Greenspan to be gone.

I think this means Dean is gone; it's a desperation move. But, of course, we'll see, and none of us has a crystal ball...

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Note to self: Add this to the list of things that are not allowed on this board.

AAwwww, come on clubby!

[Isn't it sooo cute when he sticks his widdle wip out all that way?]

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I wasn't talking about censorship, merely social/community acceptable behavior.

And thank God for those customs and mores of respect for your fellow human beings, or there'd be much more farting in church.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
I just don't find the viability test to be vastly more intellectually suspect than conception.

Why?

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
There could be another person (for simplicity's sake, you can call him the Pope) who says that all sex has the potential to create life and so we should ban all birth control and nonprocreative sex.

Whoa Nelly! Back up and read that to yourself, again. Are you sure that was the analogy you wanted to use?

"Sex" is an act that one does. An act is not something that posseses rights that are weighed against another's rights. It is an act performed by a person (who has rights). Acts that people do don't have rights. The people have the rights. The abortion debate centers on weighing the rights of two beings against each other.

Note to LDE: anything described with a verb doesn't have rights. The things that have righs are described by nouns, although not all nouns have rights.

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
They could see conception as an arbitrary line and in doing so call you "intellectually dishonest" for supporting the denial of life to all of the little potential fetuses who are so insensitively captured in a latex baggie and thrown in the garbage.

See my post to Ty. Sperm is a cell from a human being, but it is not a human being. Neither is a kidney.

BTW - still haven't heard anyone give me a definition of what is a human being. Hint: sex is not a human being.

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
In other words, I feel that your choice of conception as the dividing line is not as logically inevitable as you are making it out to be.

Why? Is it because a sperm is a human being or is it because sex is a human being. Seriously. Explain to me again how the sperm/sex analogy cause you to arrive at your conclusion that conception as the dividing line is not logically inevitable. You lost me on that one.

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
[eating lunch so I am letting myself be sucked back in despite my "embarrassing" losses earlier today. be gentle.]

Me, too. What are you having? I am having a bowl of Lucky Charms, which I am delighted to tell you have WAY better marshmallows nowadays than when I was a kid. More and better colors, too. Had potato skins for breakfast, hence the cereal for lunch. Trying to balance out my diet a bit.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by bilmore
Ah. This makes more sense, then. The department trying to deport determines the outcome of appeals based on presentations made by the department trying to deport?

No. The speed at which cases are expected to proceed makes it impossible for judges to do sufficient factual determinations, such as whether the government that was persecuting one of the deportees is still in power (judge's opinion says it is not, but in fact it is).

Why don't you read the damn opinion? Or at least the article?

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Let the heathens spill theirs
on the dusty ground.
God will strike them down for
each sperm that can't be found.

But if you wipe them up off the ground with the towel, won't they be easier for God to find than if you left them on the floor where people could tread on them and scatter them about? Of course, it should be a clean towel washed with holy water, but I think that is just generally understood and doesn't have to be stated outright.

The towel will protectith thy sperm so sayeth the Lord.*

*I am pretty sure I read that in the Bible somewhere.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
No. The speed at which cases are expected to proceed makes it impossible for judges to do sufficient factual determinations, such as whether the government that was persecuting one of the deportees is still in power (judge's opinion says it is not, but in fact it is).

Why don't you read the damn opinion? Or at least the article?

(Sigh.) You should re-read what I was responding to. And then, attempt to process the information. And, then, if it's still warranted, indicate that you would like me to read something.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

Yes. Conception is a nice, tidy, bright line. So is birth. It's just as nice and tidy, in fact, even more so, because not only is the human live actually alive, it is doing so on its own, with no actual physical connection to the mother.

Other than perhaps for feeding. I never understood this viability distinction. For at least the first 3 years post birth, a baby cannot survive on ems own. Em needs someone to at the very least to feed em. Hell, I'm in my 30s and I barely pass the viability test.