Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Waiting for Sebby to get upset about this sort of cancel culture.

I’ve actually been arguing for two weeks with a buddy who thinks this stuff is fine. I see a split among supporters of Israel here. Half think this stuff is acceptable, great even (caveat emptor). Half think this is de facto squelching freedom of speech, and if we embrace this, we shit on the most cherished rights of free expression which liberal democracies, like Israel, seek to uphold.

I’m with the latter. In fact, I go one step further. I think the cancellation of Tlaib’s college campus speech, and the efforts of those outside her district to donate money to a challenger to knock her out of office are problematic.

Tlaib, and the rest of the Squad, are idiots. But nothing - nothing even conceptually - is gained by shutting them up. One has a right to be an idiot. And if one’s constituents want idiots to speak for them (See also, Gaetz, MTG, Boebert) they have that right.

And we should keep these idiots in the public sphere. Because they remind us all that this country is filled with idiots, and what idiots think (say, biological men should be allowed to swim against women, the election was stolen, etc.) does not disappear because the voices of idiots are silenced.

Cancellation of anyone for his or her decision to support either side here offends every principle on which this country is based. If you think it’s okay, you violate the axiom that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and that weakens a pillar of liberal democracies, like Israel and the U.S.

I’ll laugh at Tlaib, who is a goddamned fool, all day. But I’m an enemy of anyone who seeks to shut her up.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Matt Yglesias is right about the way people react to anti-Semitism.

Except that his assessment fails to prove that Musk was retweeting GRT. Saying that Jews supported open immigration isn’t saying they unwittingly support GRT.

That’s an example of a tactic that the right and left (and I’m surprised Yglesias would do it) frequently use to create strawman. You take the statement made, then affix it to the most extreme position nearest it. Example: If a person says he’s pro-Palestinian but fails to articulate the breadth of his position, you make him pro-Hamas, and if you’re really ambitious, you make him pro-Jihadist. Voila! You’ve made an anodyne statement into something atrocious and bigoted. Or, if the statement is potentially impolitic, like Musk’s, you’ve dialed it up from controversial to repugnant!

Musk’s position in that retweet is at best opaque. He’s also an insomniac whacko who frequently tweets incoherently. But hey… why view it in that light, or the less controversial light we ought, when instead we can ascribe the most extreme meaning to it.

Because it’s all about the gotcha. About signaling that someone is not virtuous. Scoring points using words out of context, or in a made up context.

This is why no one reads or trusts most media these days. And again, I’m surprised Yglesias did this. But then, journalism today is all about the clicks, and the man needs to dance for his dollars.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

What? Not sure what you mean.

I mean Hollywood should have fired Sarandon a long time ago.

Benedict was a member of Nazi youth in his childhood, before and during WWII.

His fascist leanings continued throughout his life, though more in the mold of the Francoists, for whom fascism and Roman Catholicism served the same ends.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I’ve actually been arguing for two weeks with a buddy who thinks this stuff is fine. I see a split among supporters of Israel here. Half think this stuff is acceptable, great even (caveat emptor). Half think this is de facto squelching freedom of speech, and if we embrace this, we shit on the most cherished rights of free expression which liberal democracies, like Israel, seek to uphold.

I’m with the latter. In fact, I go one step further. I think the cancellation of Tlaib’s college campus speech, and the efforts of those outside her district to donate money to a challenger to knock her out of office are problematic.

Tlaib, and the rest of the Squad, are idiots. But nothing - nothing even conceptually - is gained by shutting them up. One has a right to be an idiot. And if one’s constituents want idiots to speak for them (See also, Gaetz, MTG, Boebert) they have that right.

And we should keep these idiots in the public sphere. Because they remind us all that this country is filled with idiots, and what idiots think (say, biological men should be allowed to swim against women, the election was stolen, etc.) does not disappear because the voices of idiots are silenced.

Cancellation of anyone for his or her decision to support either side here offends every principle on which this country is based. If you think it’s okay, you violate the axiom that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and that weakens a pillar of liberal democracies, like Israel and the U.S.

I’ll laugh at Tlaib, who is a goddamned fool, all day. But I’m an enemy of anyone who seeks to shut her up.

A schoolmate of my son, a Palestinian, and two of his friends, also Palestinian, were shot yesterday in Brattleboro Vermont, on the edge of the UVM campus.

I think it's obvious that calling everyone you disagree with an antisemite, a Hamas supporter, etc. enables this kind of terrorism. Regardless of whether we learn the shooting was done by a MAGA terrorist who hates everyone or by a Zionist terrorist whose hatred is focused on Palestinians and their supporters, the cancel culture encourages this. And Palestinians aren't safe at schools and elsewhere because of it.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Benedict was a member of Nazi youth in his childhood, before and during WWII.

His fascist leanings continued throughout his life, though more in the mold of the Francoists, for whom fascism and Roman Catholicism served the same ends.

Wasn’t Hitler youth membership mandatory “before and during WWII?”

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Wasn’t Hitler youth membership mandatory “before and during WWII?”

Yes, and he claims to have been unenthusiastic and anti-Nazi, but there is controversy over that and there are competing stories.

Frankly, what he did at 14 in Germany (we've all seen JoJo Rabbit) is a lot less relevant than what he did in later life. It's his pre-papal writings, when he was a theologian and then when he headed the inquisition that tend to be on the frightening side. He was one of our scarier Popes.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

A schoolmate of my son, a Palestinian, and two of his friends, also Palestinian, were shot yesterday in Brattleboro Vermont, on the edge of the UVM campus.

I think it's obvious that calling everyone you disagree with an antisemite, a Hamas supporter, etc. enables this kind of terrorism. Regardless of whether we learn the shooting was done by a MAGA terrorist who hates everyone or by a Zionist terrorist whose hatred is focused on Palestinians and their supporters, the cancel culture encourages this. And Palestinians aren't safe at schools and elsewhere because of it.

Today really really sucked.

First I had to figure out how to tell my son, after he woke up, that someone from his school had been shot. And the boy slept until noon so my wife and I kind of obsessed over it. Then I learned one of my partner's spouses died, someone who has been fighting the same cancer as me. Then I learned my foster sister's brother had died and she was pretty bummed. He had been very troubled his whole life, and was in a supervised living setting, but he got covid and went very very quickly. The way he landed in supervised living was kind of comic - he had gotten really drunk and went to an apartment he used to live in and tried to break in, thinking it was still his. But he was an ex-con and the system didn't want him out in the world any more, and I think it left him pretty depressed.

Sorry to vent. It's just been one of those days.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Today really really sucked.

First I had to figure out how to tell my son, after he woke up, that someone from his school had been shot. And the boy slept until noon so my wife and I kind of obsessed over it. Then I learned one of my partner's spouses died, someone who has been fighting the same cancer as me. Then I learned my foster sister's brother had died and she was pretty bummed. He had been very troubled his whole life, and was in a supervised living setting, but he got covid and went very very quickly. The way he landed in supervised living was kind of comic - he had gotten really drunk and went to an apartment he used to live in and tried to break in, thinking it was still his. But he was an ex-con and the system didn't want him out in the world any more, and I think it left him pretty depressed.

Sorry to vent. It's just been one of those days.

Life during Covid for me is whack a mole- up and down. Sorry your today was so fucked, hope tomorrow or someday soon is up. Or I guess whack a mole analogy, hope tomorrow is down? anyway better.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Life during Covid for me is whack a mole- up and down. Sorry your today was so fucked, hope tomorrow or someday soon is up. Or I guess whack a mole analogy, hope tomorrow is down? anyway better.

Tomorrow will be better.

Part of today was that all three of these things came out of the blue. I really thought my partner's spouse was going to make it. I hadn't heard about my foster sister's brother in years. And who would have anticipated that shooting?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Benedict was a member of Nazi youth in his childhood, before and during WWII.

His fascist leanings continued throughout his life, though more in the mold of the Francoists, for whom fascism and Roman Catholicism served the same ends.

The Church's "look the other way" and sometimes, "let's see if we can share in the spoils" behaviors during the Holocaust haven't been given the Scorcese level Hollywood treatment they deserve.

A flick on par with the excellent Conspiracy, detailing the Wannsee Conference, recreating known meetings the of Church hierarchy regarding the Holocaust is overdue.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

A schoolmate of my son, a Palestinian, and two of his friends, also Palestinian, were shot yesterday in Brattleboro Vermont, on the edge of the UVM campus.

I think it's obvious that calling everyone you disagree with an antisemite, a Hamas supporter, etc. enables this kind of terrorism. Regardless of whether we learn the shooting was done by a MAGA terrorist who hates everyone or by a Zionist terrorist whose hatred is focused on Palestinians and their supporters, the cancel culture encourages this. And Palestinians aren't safe at schools and elsewhere because of it.

The incoherence of the aggressive actors here is more depressing then the polarization. Sadly, everything is now polarized, so I expect that. Our media, our social media, feed us the world in binaries.

And while I'm of no religion, I must admit - the absence of religion is felt. That sounds odd, of course, given the current mess in the Middle East accrues significantly, historically, from religion. And it seems fairly certain the greatest bigotries we'll see here will be from the most religious (most notably, aggressive Christians, is my guess). Nevertheless, the fervency, the extremism, and the vehemence of responses to the Israeli/Palestinian situation, indicate a desire among many to belong to something. To be part of "a side." And this is proven by the ignorance and incurious nature of the loudest involved in the war of words and actions over here.

The strongest voices, as always, refuse to or cannot chew gum and walk at once. Israel is at fault for numerous things. Hamas is at fault for numerous things. We can differ in assessing degree and which is most at fault in this moment. The issue is incredibly complex. But the crowds don't want to hear that.

I'd wager almost none of the people holding flags and chanting "River to the Sea" have a clue about the subject. The people tearing down stickers showing hostages have no clue. The people asserting it's totally and exclusively Anti-Semitism and that there is no difference between critiquing Israel and attacking Jews generally have no clue.

The list of nuanced conversations necessary, or that at least can and should be had - even for one like me, who strongly supports Israel and thinks Hamas owns the current mess nearly 100% - is endless.

And yet... Flags in the streets. All or nothing positions. Maybe it's just our genetics, one more proof the Yeats' axiom, "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." But maybe not. Maybe everything from our domestic politics to the environment to our sexuality to our economy to race to "equality" has become black and white battlegrounds for the simple reason that people are pack animals, and they need to cleave to something bigger than themselves. And nuance won't do. It doesn't provide the certainty of blind faith, of that primordial dopamine rush one acquires from "believing" regardless of facts.

I see a tremendous amount of free floating religious idiocy in the world, applied to almost every subject. And it makes me a bit wistful for the older, simpler varieties. At least they tended to stay in their lanes.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Except that his assessment fails to prove that Musk was retweeting GRT. Saying that Jews supported open immigration isn’t saying they unwittingly support GRT.

I think you are missing the context. It took me two seconds to find this:

ICYMI: Musk was responding to a post Wednesday that said Jewish communities “have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them.” The post also referenced “hordes of minorities” flooding Western countries, a popular antisemitic conspiracy theory.

It’s the kind of post you can find easily on X these days, and likely would have gone unnoticed had Musk, with more than 160 million followers, not re-shared the post with the comment: “You have said the actual truth.”

Why it matters
The antisemitic conspiracy theory — which posits that Jews want to bring undocumented minority populations into Western countries to reduce White majorities in those nations — is often espoused by hate groups.

It’s the same conspiracy echoed in the final written words of Robert Bowers, the convicted murderer of 11 people at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh in 2018. His last social media post said that a Jewish nonprofit dedicated to aiding refugees “likes to bring invaders in that kill our people.” The mass shooting was the deadliest attack against Jews in American history.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'd wager almost none of the people holding flags and chanting "River to the Sea" have a clue about the subject.

Actually, I don't think this is true at all, I think a lot of them are very well studied.

Look, I majored in Middle Eastern History, and I had no choice but to learn about this stuff, and I fell in at the time with a lot of people who became Middle East specialists of one sort or another, whether professors or government officials or NGO administrators, etc. and who keep me abreast of some of this. So I have a pretty good idea of the history, and when I talked to my kids, who have not attended any of the protests but who talk to a lot of people who have, they have not infrequently given me detail I hadn't heard before. There are smart kids in the world, much as us geezers may want to think our age gives us benefits in knowledge and wisdom.

The best history for non-expert readers I've seen on "Between the River and the Sea" is here: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-th...er-to-the-sea/ (note it is a generally pro-Palestinian publication, but most of the pro-Israeli ones are pretty rank hasbara).

In particular, I think the younger generation has come to understand how much hasbara is just pure disinformation, thanks to the fact that so much hasbara just uses the same techniques used by internet trolls and organizations like Cambridge Analytics that they have become so familiar with. They see though it. And right now many of them understand that the argument over "form the river to the sea" is not about the slogan but instead about the old trick of avoiding a reasoned debate with your opponents by seeking to discredit them instead.

When I was young, some of this was done through the refusal to suggest a "palestine" exists or that "palestinians" are a recognizable group that should have rights as such - and the suggestion that using the word "palestinian" was antisemitic as a result. This old trope is coming back in Israel. This is part of why Israel arrests people for simply displaying a Palestinian flag.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Actually, I don't think this is true at all, I think a lot of them are very well studied.

Look, I majored in Middle Eastern History, and I had no choice but to learn about this stuff, and I fell in at the time with a lot of people who became Middle East specialists of one sort or another, whether professors or government officials or NGO administrators, etc. and who keep me abreast of some of this. So I have a pretty good idea of the history, and when I talked to my kids, who have not attended any of the protests but who talk to a lot of people who have, they have not infrequently given me detail I hadn't heard before. There are smart kids in the world, much as us geezers may want to think our age gives us benefits in knowledge and wisdom.

The best history for non-expert readers I've seen on "Between the River and the Sea" is here: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/on-th...er-to-the-sea/ (note it is a generally pro-Palestinian publication, but most of the pro-Israeli ones are pretty rank hasbara).

In particular, I think the younger generation has come to understand how much hasbara is just pure disinformation, thanks to the fact that so much hasbara just uses the same techniques used by internet trolls and organizations like Cambridge Analytics that they have become so familiar with. They see though it. And right now many of them understand that the argument over "form the river to the sea" is not about the slogan but instead about the old trick of avoiding a reasoned debate with your opponents by seeking to discredit them instead.

When I was young, some of this was done through the refusal to suggest a "palestine" exists or that "palestinians" are a recognizable group that should have rights as such - and the suggestion that using the word "palestinian" was antisemitic as a result. This old trope is coming back in Israel. This is part of why Israel arrests people for simply displaying a Palestinian flag.

Israel currently controls Palestine, from the river to the sea. Everyone understands that one can advocate for the continued existence of the Israel state and control over that land, from the river to the sea, without also advocating for genocide. It's so obvious that it doesn't need to be pointed out.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Israel currently controls Palestine, from the river to the sea. Everyone understands that one can advocate for the continued existence of the Israel state and control over that land, from the river to the sea, without also advocating for genocide. It's so obvious that it doesn't need to be pointed out.

By the way, below are some selections from Likud's original platform, you'll see it uses the phrase, but in the sense of excluding Palestinians from any role in governing in the area, including through a Palestinian state. It may be they worry about Palestinians using the phrase the way they do.

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
...

Settlement
Settlement. both urban and rural. in all parts of the Land of Israel is the focal point of the Zionist effort to redeem the country, to maintain vital security areas and serves as a reservoir of strength and inspiration for the renewal of the pioneering spirit. The Likud government will call on the younger generation in Israel and the dispersions to settle and help every group and individual in the task of inhabiting and cultivating the wasteland, while taking care not to dispossess anyone.