Drive fast, live hard, no regrets... Sorry Penske

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I wonder if this will be a wake-up call to Americans about the effects of having a poor, uneducated underclass without options, opportunities, etc. They're harder to ignore now, aren't they?

Probably not - the predominant response seems to be "Oh, screw them, they are poor and lazy and can't afford anything better. Just like in Haiti or Southeast Asia"

I guess that raping, looting (real looting, not taking neccessities), shooting, etc. are ways that people ravaged by conditions can take out their grief and despair. Sort of a "I have suffered - now I will make others suffer more." People will act like animals if they are given the chance and the motivation. That's sad.

I have no problem with looting to save your family. Thats just survival. But stealing from people who can't protect their homes should earn you a bullet between your eyes.

I wish the best of luck to the people protecting their homes. And I hope they murder every son of a bitch who tries to steal from them.

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I am getting the sense that you feel that the people who didn't have cars in which to evacuate were just too stupid to evacuate. You are truly charming (and whiffalicious, in your response to SS's post about people greeting the helicopters with open arms etc. etc.) this evening. Almost as much so as night before last.

Every once in a while, it would be nice if you didn't try so hard to make others look stupid. I'm just saying.

My comments about the poor uneducated underclass (or whatever it was that mmmm called them) really had nothing to do with the folks on the Gulf Coast and were more sweeping generalizations about the poor uneducated underclass all over America. Of course I feel badly for those folks who didn't have the means to evacuate. And I've been pretty actively involved in some rescue efforts over the last couple of days because I think it's the right thing to do.

But to excuse antisocial behavior, like raping and looting, because someone is a member of the poor uneducated underclass only seems to me to exacerbate the problem.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I have no problem with looting to save your family. Thats just survival. But stealing from people who can't protect their homes should earn you a bullet between your eyes.

I wish the best of luck to the people protecting their homes. And I hope they murder every son of a bitch who tries to steal from them.

Exactly. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that looting homes, at any level, is ok. My relatives have already turned lots of people away with warning shots. And they say that the cops are definitely doing some shooting of people who threaten them, too.

At this point, though, protecting stores seems silly. If it's anything needed for survival or anything like that, jesus, let it go. If it's luxury items or money, while it's wrong, I don't think that it really makes sense to expend a lot of resources to protect the assets of absent businesses when the whole region is a disaster area.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I have no problem with looting to save your family. Thats just survival. But stealing from people who can't protect their homes should earn you a bullet between your eyes.

I wish the best of luck to the people protecting their homes. And I hope they murder every son of a bitch who tries to steal from them.

By looting do you mean stores? I don't even really have a problem with people breaking into empty houses to take any food/potable water that is there. I'm not really so big on the stealing TVs, and I kinda wonder where the hell they think they are going to take the stuff they are stealing.

Clothes I think are fair game given that the people I know of who got out have, like, 2 changes of clothes -- I would think people would have had to abandon a bunch of their stuff.

Actually the TVs being stolen kind of make me laugh. Not if guns/violence are involved, but just generally.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I'm not really that idealistic. There will always be an underclass, and there will always be people who will never make their own lives better. At some level , sure, fuck them. At some point, though, having this many uneducated people, poor people, incarcerated people, etc., starts to weigh on the ability of our country to be productive and lead the world and all that shit.

Not really. Welfare is cheap. Costs us nothing to maintain people with nothing. In fact, we could multiply it several times and it'd still be a minimal cost. Oh, but we're spending a load of money on something else... what was that???? Gimme a sec....

BTW, we spend monthly in Iraq twice as much as the entire bailout packaage Congress is proposing for NO. Keep halliburton fat; fuck the Bayou.

Thank God the only thing the GOP is fucking harder than our country is its own chances in 2006 and 2008.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen
But to excuse antisocial behavior, like raping and looting, because someone is a member of the poor uneducated underclass only seems to me to exacerbate the problem.

I did not suggest anything was excused. I suggested that some things had reasons for them that go beyond the immediate situation. If we have such poor class relations in this country that people use opportunities like this to kill, rape, steal and maim for the pleasure of it, we need to investigate why that is the case. Doesn't mean that the perpetrators shouldn't suffer swift justice; just means that proaction is better than reaction.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen
My comments about the poor uneducated underclass (or whatever it was that mmmm called them) really had nothing to do with the folks on the Gulf Coast and were more sweeping generalizations about the poor uneducated underclass all over America. Of course I feel badly for those folks who didn't have the means to evacuate. And I've been pretty actively involved in some rescue efforts over the last couple of days because I think it's the right thing to do.

The context was the Gulf Coast and specifically New Orleans, where people are dying in the streets. So it seems just a tad callous to get on your soapbox about people who haven't done everything they could have done to have fixed their situations. And in the context of the people on TV (who I'm sure are poor) being upset about not having food, your comments denigrating people as expecting handouts seemed kind of pointed and, well, mean.

It was perhaps not the best time to bring it up.

But whatever. And it's nice that you are helping with relief efforts.

ETA christ, the subject line of your rant about the undeserving ungrateful poor was NOLA. Though, people do ignore subject lines a lot. But it probably contributed to my feeling you were referring to the people stuck there.

OTOH, I am a big bitch and your comment about making other people look stupid was on target. Some make it easier than others, oc.

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I have no problem with looting to save your family. Thats just survival. But stealing from people who can't protect their homes should earn you a bullet between your eyes.

I wish the best of luck to the people protecting their homes. And I hope they murder every son of a bitch who tries to steal from them.

How is stealing a TV from Walmart protecting your family? And what about the assholes who set their own city on fire? I dont get that. They did it in LA too. What gives?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
How is stealing a TV from Walmart protecting your family? And what about the assholes who set their own city on fire? I dont get that. They did it in LA too. What gives?

People are inherently bad.

[J. Fred Muggs]

Originally posted by mmm3587
If we have such poor class relations in this country that people use opportunities like this to kill, rape, steal and maim for the pleasure of it, we need to investigate why that is the case.

I'm sorry, but how do "class relations" lead to rape, etc? Are they checking bank balances before raping now? The opportunity to kill, rape, steal [in my book, taking stuff necessary for your survival doesn't count as stealing in this context]
, etc. wasn't caused by poor class relations, it was caused by the combination of a natural disaster, lack of police presence, and the complete lack of a moral foundation.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
How is stealing a TV from Walmart protecting your family? And what about the assholes who set their own city on fire? I dont get that. They did it in LA too. What gives?

I was referring to people looting food and basic shit they need for survival. They have to survive. I think thats acceptable. Shit, its necessary.

Stealing TVs and DVD players is not acceptable. And stealing from another person's home is lower than low. The people doing that deserve to get killed by homeowners and business owners defending their stores and homes.

This is not the same as LA.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I was referring to people looting food and basic shit they need for survival. They have to survive. I think thats acceptable. Shit, its necessary.

Stealing TVs and DVD players is not acceptable. And stealing from another person's home is lower than low. The people doing that deserve to get killed by homeowners and business owners defending their stores and homes.

This is not the same as LA.

Where are you on taking food/water from homes whose occupants have managed to get out of the city? I don't have a problem with it.

[Sparklehorse]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Was it Fox News or MSNBC that had its person reporting from Aruba on the hurricane because she was on location for her big Nathalie Holloway piece and they didn't bother getting another anchor to cover their actual important news in the headquarters? Some awful woman with a raspy voice. We couldn't fathom who ever hired her with that voice to be an anchorperson. Grating.

ETA - same night, Fox News (I think) had the guy from Scarborough County/Country or whatever that show is called (I guess he must be Scarborough) doing the hurricane coverage. What the hell? where are all of the actual newspeople these days? I mean besides John Stewart.

The Newshour on PBS had excellent coverage tonight. Around here, there is a late-night repeat.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
By looting do you mean stores? I don't even really have a problem with people breaking into empty houses to take any food/potable water that is there. I'm not really so big on the stealing TVs, and I kinda wonder where the hell they think they are going to take the stuff they are stealing.

Clothes I think are fair game given that the people I know of who got out have, like, 2 changes of clothes -- I would think people would have had to abandon a bunch of their stuff.

Actually the TVs being stolen kind of make me laugh. Not if guns/violence are involved, but just generally.

I don't take issue with people breaking into empty homes for food. But breaking into empty homes for tvs is disgusting. And raping someone or beating someone for his or her stuff in these circumstances should get you shot between the eyes.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I don't take issue with people breaking into empty homes for food. But breaking into empty homes for tvs is disgusting. And raping someone or beating someone for his or her stuff in these circumstances should get you shot between the eyes.

I would be OK with holding someone who was clearly hoarding food/water at gunpoint to take some of their stuff. It seems like a time to share.

I am not condoning in any way, but given the state of communications about what is going to happen (apparently pretty nonexistent even where large groups are congregated) to help people/get them out, and the heat (I have not checked the weather reports, but I'm betting hot and un-fucking-believeably humid), and the fact that people have nothing to eat but have found liquor, it does not surprise me that they are setting shit on fire and generally running rampant. The stress has got to be unbelievable, and after 3 days with no information about what is going to happen, there's got to be a lot of panic. Some people don't cope with panic so well.

As the city appears to be a total loss, and there's nothing to do with the stolen TVs, so I don't really care all that much about that -- it seems pointless.

The shooting at/attacking rescue people is fucked up, and rape is inexcusable.