Posting Towards Gomorrah

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What precisely is wrong with the the advice to buy low, sell high? To make no friends in the pits and take no prisoners?

And if you can get an advance copy of the Dept of Agriculture's crop report, gopher it.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What precisely is wrong with the the advice to buy low, sell high? To make no friends in the pits and take no prisoners?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Many of us have nothing against tests, but it's the standardized test and the curriculum focused on beating the test rather than learning the lesson that I find problematic.

This point still confuses me. If the lesson to be learned is that seven times nine equals sixty-three, and the test question says "7 X 9 = ___", where's the harm? Or, if the lesson to be learned is, what was the history of the American colonies, and the test then asks about details of the colonies as a sampling method to see if the students learned what they were supposed to learn, where's the harm? Can you give me an example like this that illustrates what you mean?

[bilmore]

This may fall in with the "Dems who commit traitorous acts and support terrorism" line. (i.e., in the category of "complete Bilmore bullshit")

I have my response to that set of posts all nicely drafted up, setting out the treason statute, and naming names and, no doubt, seriously insulting things that you hold dear. I decided to sit on it, as the subject appears to unhinge some here, but if you'd rather, we can have that conversation. Your call.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Viewpoint may play a part in your perception. When you look at your kids' math books, and you see problems which don't really call for answers, but, instead, talk about things like "explore different ways that YOU might want to try to find a solution to this problem, and discuss these ideas with your exploration partners", and it strikes you as an appropriate approach to mathematics, well, I think our conversation is simply going to wander.

OK. When that happens, I'll post about it here. Ditto with the Koran study.

If, instead, your district has moved back to a more "yes, there IS one correct answer to this problem, and your job is to find it" mode, then, consider yourself lucky, because vast swaths of the country's school system have not yet done this. Speaking to an older friend, fairly high up in the MN ed system, and who is firmly of the belief that the "right answer" isn't as important as getting the kids to "think about strategies" last week, I was told that "a small percentage" of schools have "moved backward" in this regard - to the "find the answer" mode. I say this only to disclose where I'm getting the quantitative picture on where schools generally are across the country.

Perhaps I am naive, but your picture doesn't ring true to me, not least because the parents I know -- lefties and righties alike -- want their kids to learn the right answers, and not just to have good self-esteem. Maybe other board parents could chime in?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
My assumption here is that you are sarcastically making fun of the idea that Letterman tries to convince viewers of the correctness of the Democratic positions. I forgot that you believe the NYT is nonpartisan.

Shame how that Rather guy got railroaded, huh?

Ever since Brother Rather was diverted from his mission, we have stepped up our recruitment efforts on college campuses and have also redoubled our efforts re flouridation.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
OK. When that happens, I'll post about it here. Ditto with the Koran study.



Perhaps I am naive, but your picture doesn't ring true to me, not least because the parents I know -- lefties and righties alike -- want their kids to learn the right answers, and not just to have good self-esteem. Maybe other board parents could chime in?

brief flirtation with "creative spelling" in early elemnetary school, but most math seems to be tied to traditional answers- although at one point around 3rd grade they learned "standard configurations" which led into, I think, multiplication problems.

I had the odd experience of having passed differential equations in college, but not being able to help my kid with 3rd grade math.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
That's what struck me as different when I read it this week. It now sounds like a ten-way conversation between a married couple.

Good analogy.

S_A_M

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Viewpoint may play a part in your perception.

Good points. Age of the children may also play a role.

I quote the line above though, because it is so applicable to something I realized just at lunch about perceptions of media bias. (As if it were some revelation.)

I was reading the Washington Times, which I do every so often because they have a good sports section, and because I get the WaPo at home.

As I was flipping through the paper, I noted a couple of headlines and story leads in this political season, and I thought to myself -- "Boy, you can sure tell this is a conservative paper -- the choice of stories and the way they slant them."

It then struck me that someone might actually think the same thing, from the other side, about the Washington Post -- which I really do think is pretty down the middle. (I admit that the NYT is left of center.) So, the bias and perception of bias is both with the reader and the papers.

Damn. [Not sure why I felt the need to say this, but it really struck me. Guess I'm just simple.]

S_A_M



S_A_M

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by bilmore
I have my response to that set of posts all nicely drafted up, setting out the treason statute, and naming names and, no doubt, seriously insulting things that you hold dear. I decided to sit on it, as the subject appears to unhinge some here, but if you'd rather, we can have that conversation. Your call.

Oh, please.

Remember: Traitorous "acts." Not statements. Not votes. Not speeches. Acts.

And "supporting terrorism." Not "failing to fight terrorism in the way that Bush and Bilmore think is best." Supporting it. Through acts.

Go for it.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Perhaps I am naive, but your picture doesn't ring true to me, not least because the parents I know -- lefties and righties alike -- want their kids to learn the right answers, and not just to have good self-esteem. Maybe other board parents could chime in?

Just to flesh out a bit - the Minneapolis school system is right now going through this same debate. They adopted some program about six years ago - brought in by the second-to-last (now fired) superintendent - that was dreadfully "feel-goodish." Too many kids were getting failing scores in the old, objective systems. With the "modern" systems, there was little pressure to have kids "know" things when they were finished. The new system in Mpls allowed for passing grades for working hard, collaberatively, to creatively find ways in which answers could be found, if someone were looking for answers. Unfortunately, the kids, who could huddle and discuss theoretical plans, couldn't make change.

Generally, you'll find the most obvious "esteem" kinds of programs in those areas with a history of poor fundamental education. It was, for quite a few years, easier and cheaper to buy those systems than to actually fix the lack of learning that was going on. That was part of the impetus behind Kennedy and Bush's NCLB testing emphasis.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
So, the bias and perception of bias is both with the reader and the papers.

2.

CNN is running a series entitled "Broken Government", in the three weeks leading up to the election. When I mention this as a sign of bias, the Dems I know look at me, matter-of-factly, and say, but everyone knows our government is broken, there's no bias in that. And they do it with sincerity. And I believe that they really mean it, and are puzzled at my point. And these aren't dumb people.

(And, yes, Fox does it too.)

[bilmore]

Is Pelosi actually to the left of her constituency, dead on with them, or to their right?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by bilmore
Is Pelosi actually to the left of her constituency, dead on with them, or to their right?

Depends. Are we talking about the primary, the general election, or while actually working in the House?

The phenom of being further from the center for the primaries, and the election, is pretty common. Remember when Bush opposed nation-building as a liberal fantasy?

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by bilmore
This point still confuses me. If the lesson to be learned is that seven times nine equals sixty-three, and the test question says "7 X 9 = ___", where's the harm? Or, if the lesson to be learned is, what was the history of the American colonies, and the test then asks about details of the colonies as a sampling method to see if the students learned what they were supposed to learn, where's the harm? Can you give me an example like this that illustrates what you mean?

If that were what was being taught, there would be no harm.

Instead, significant amount of time is being spent teaching test taking strategies, like when it is best to guess.

See, e.g. http://www.sparknotes.com/testprep/b...section1.rhtml

This example is for the SAT, but there are strategies that are at least as complicated for any standardized test - SAT prep just happens to be big private business and therefore lots of information is online. And there are many, many more strategies that are much more complicated.

I don't have a problem with my kids learning that 7 x 9 = 63. I have a problem with my kids spending weeks learning instead that if they can eliminate two of the answers, they should guess. And that when they guess in those circumstances, they should pick the answer that looks less correct. (Both of these are effective strategies for any multiple choice test designed by professional test makers - up to and including the bar exam).

I know this is not the intended consequence of testing. It is a consequence nonetheless.

Testing is a necessary evil, but one has to recognize that were important consequences are at stake (individually, the right to advance; school-level, access to funding), all strategies will be deployed, not just the intended ones.