Posting Towards Gomorrah - Page 129

Secret_Agent_Man · 09-21-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
The Canadians fucked up. The Syrians tortured the guy. And you want to blame the administration? Typical.

You skipped a couple of steps. Typical.

The Canadians fucked up and gave us bad information.

Then we grabbed an innocent man (probably without any independent investigation) and -- without any sort of process or meaningful review -- "rendered"his ass off to Syria.

Why did we ship him off to Syria? Perhaps so he could enjoy the local couscous during his interrogation? Or, was it because we expected the Syrians to peel him like a grape?

How can you say that this is not blame-worthy? It is a prime example of why I oppose the practice of extraordinary rendition.

I guess the Syrians did get the truth. Oops. Sorry for the lost years of your life and the torture, Achmed. (Wait, we won't even say that, because it could help him in his lawsuit, which we will batle to have dismissed on national security grounds.)

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Do the Syrians have habeas corpus?

Nope. Neither do the Libyans or the Chinese or the North Koreans. Is that your standard now?

If the Bush Adminstration had its way, neither would this fellow. Or you, if they snatched you up at an airport.

S_A_M

Secret_Agent_Man · 09-21-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Assume for a moment that this did work. do you think the publication of this information- "hey it's scary but won't hurt you," might make it the tiniest bit less effective? we are so not mentally prepared for what is coming.

Maybe so, but I'd think not in a way that makes any practical difference. Maybe the next guy lasts for 4 minutes instead of 3. We'll live. From the sound of it, sounds like a very gut-level fear and primal reaction.

Actually, I don't understand how it doesn't hurt people -- wouldn't they actually suffocate from the plastic wrap put over their face if it was left on long enough?

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
then what did he do?

I understand that he started talking about a lot of stuff, some true and some completely fabricated.

S_A_M

taxwonk · 09-21-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore

The Canadians fucked up. The Syrians tortured the guy. And you want to blame the administration? Typical.

The Canadians didn't send him to Syria. We did. If we had held him in a US facility and allowed him to file a habeus corpus petition, he would have been more likely to released in a more timely fashion.

One would like to think he also would have been released untortured, but apparently, that can't be relied on any more.

Nobody is really outraged by the fact that he was arrested. The Canadians' culapbility pretty much ends at that stage. The real disgrace is what happened as a result of that arrest, which was the Administration's -- well, I would say fuck up, but they did it on purpose.

taxwonk · 09-21-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
You throw out some general platitude without thinking about the specific application, and such short forsight often results in immoral acts. For example. - the platitude that it is always wrong to lie - and so you tell the Nazi that you have Jews in your attic. You seem to have another platitude - it is always wrong to torture. Wrong. It is a moral imperative to torture when the act of torture will elicit information that will save innocent lives.

And moral relativism claims another moral certainty, so long as the relative position favors your point of view.

Tyrone Slothrop · 09-21-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You mean the guy that the Canadian police told us was a terrorist, so that we put him on a watch list and apprehended him when on American soil?

The Canadians fucked up. The Syrians tortured the guy. And you want to blame the administration? Typical.

I agree that the Canadians fucked up. But we're the ones who sent him to Syria where he was tortured. We can't wash our hands of that one so quickly.

Not even a hint from you that it's too bad that an innocent guy was tortured in a Syrian prison for a year because we sent him there. You're the one saying that moderate Moslems need to speak up against the radicals, too.

Quote:

Do the Syrians have habeas corpus?

Exactly.

SlaveNoMore · 09-21-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

taxwonk
Nobody is really outraged by the fact that he was arrested.

I believe Ty suggested he was "kidnapped" at the airport.

Quote:

The Canadians' culapbility pretty much ends at that stage.

Did you miss the part that the RCMP continued to lobby about his guilt, even after he was deported?

Quote:

The real disgrace is what happened as a result of that arrest, which was the Administration's -- well, I would say fuck up, but they did it on purpose.

It's a sad thing what happened to this fellow back in the backwater country of his birth, but the only thing the Administration did wrong was to listen to the Canadians. You remember them - our fair Allies to the North.

Shape Shifter · 09-21-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I believe Ty suggested he was "kidnapped" at the airport.

Did you miss the part that the RCMP continued to lobby about his guilt, even after he was deported?

It's a sad thing what happened to this fellow back in the backwater country of his birth, but the only thing the Administration did wrong was to listen to the Canadians. You remember them - our fair Allies to the North.

I thought you were the party of accountability and personal responsibility.

Oh, right, 9/11 changed everything.

Hank Chinaski · 09-21-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I thought you were the party of accountability and personal responsibility.

Oh, right, 9/11 changed everything.

ummm, you realize we meant "accountable" and "responsible" to the American people, right?

certainly Clinton respected Osama rights more than bush has been with other terrorists.

SlaveNoMore · 09-21-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Shape Shifter
I thought you were the party of accountability and personal responsibility.

Oh, right, 9/11 changed everything.

Then we're in perfect agreement.

The Canadians and Syrians should take personal responsibility and be held accountable.

Shape Shifter · 09-21-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
ummm, you realize we meant "accountable" and "responsible" to the American people, right?

certainly Clinton respected Osama rights more than bush has been with other terrorists.

W said OBL doesn't matter, remember?

Hank Chinaski · 09-21-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
W said OBL doesn't matter, remember?

he'd kill him except for the "Pakis are our friends" thing.

Spanky · 09-21-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Did you hear President Clinton on NPR this morning? His suggestion was that torture or these extraordinary measures shouldn't be accepted as a matter of policy, but in extraordinary circumstances such as the rare instance of the ticking bomb that everyone seems to think is so common, there be a FISA type court review after the fact.

It is my understanding that the CIA has asked for clarity because they don't want there to be any Grey Areas. If you decide to go down that road, and there is a posibility you may be convicted, then there is a strong incentive to not go down that road even if it is the right thing to do.

taxwonk · 09-21-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I believe Ty suggested he was "kidnapped" at the airport.

Did you miss the part that the RCMP continued to lobby about his guilt, even after he was deported?

It's a sad thing what happened to this fellow back in the backwater country of his birth, but the only thing the Administration did wrong was to listen to the Canadians. You remember them - our fair Allies to the North.

Sending someone off to another country to be tortured without any due process is nothing wrong? As for Canada, I'm much more worried about our so-called ally in the White House.

Spanky · 09-21-2006, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
And moral relativism claims another moral certainty, so long as the relative position favors your point of view.

Being specific does not equal relativism.

In contract law if you say all contracts are binding on the people who sign them, but then carve out an exception for people that were coerced, you are not diluting contract law or making it relative.

I just don't understand why liberals insist that morality has to be based on overarching general platitutdes without exceptions.

taxwonk · 09-21-2006, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
I just don't understand why liberals insist that morality has to be based on overarching general platitutdes without exceptions.

I don't believe that at all. Relatively speaking.

And an exception is what converts the absolute to the relative. Sometimes, I wonder about you, Spanky.